OpenBSD Journal

Forbes Magazine Covers OpenBSD

Contributed by jolan on from the lolcore.s dept.

There is a pair of articles over at Forbes. The first is entitled, "Is Linux For Losers?" which contains some choice quotes from Theo concerning code quality as well as this immensely hilarious quote, "BSD guys make fun of Linux on message boards and Web sites, the gist being that BSD guys are a lot like Linux guys, except they have kissed girls". The second is entitled, "Free Bird" (requires registration, use l/p forbesdontbug or try bugmenot.com) which is a little less inflammatory and details a general history of OpenBSD and a brief overview of how OpenBSD is organized.

(Comments are closed)

Comments

  1. By ErikTheRed (68.6.193.220) erik-undeadly@planeterik.com on

    Daniel (now 'Dan') Lyons has a fascination with bashing Linux, and open source in general. The guy's best described as an 'asshat.' He probably jerks off to the idea of getting open source types to badmouth each other.

    Comments

    1. By Anonymous Coward (131.202.9.181) on

      Sadly, the article isn't really about OpenBSD ... it seems to be about Dan using a couple of out-of-context quotes to back up his prejudices (trashing Linux being one of his favorite things...) In retrospect, perhaps Theo should not have talked to him.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

      Thanks Theo... all we need is *less* diplomacy instead of more. Fool.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

        nobody here really cares what *you* need.

        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

          Who says they care about what you need?

  2. By zecrose (151.201.224.8) zecrose@gmail.com on

    I can't believe that Theo made "linux=garbage" claim. Whenever somebody asked him about linux, he always replied that he has has never used linux before. I also doubt Forbes will post some bluffed article.

    Comments

    1. By Nate (65.95.127.113) on

      Perhaps, after being asked his opinion of Linux as if it were an operating system for maybe the hundredth time he finally got mad enough to say something bad.

      Besides, in a recent interview Linus agreed.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (204.209.209.129) on

        Please post a link to that article. Its priceless.

    2. By m0rf (68.104.57.241) on

      Not using it is not the same as having gone through the code.

    3. By Anonymous Coward (66.44.3.21) on

      I got the idea that this quote might have been taken out of context, or perhaps overemphasized. You'll notice it appears at the very start of the article, but I can't imagine it being the first or most important thing Theo talked about.

    4. By Han (82.73.147.65) on

      Check the sourcetree for theo.c

  3. By Anonymous Coward (66.131.207.182) on

    Very interesting read, especially the 'Free Bird' one - glad to see articles like this. As for the $30,000.00... I've never thought he was getting so little... I'll be buying another T-Shirt & CD on my next pay check, that's for sure! Hope more people realise and recognize the need to donate to OpenBSD - to make it even better!

  4. By almeida (66.31.180.15) on

    Too bad they threw this in at the end: OpenBSD is painfully difficult to use...

    It's certainly more difficult to use if you're comparing it with Windows, but it definitely isn't painful compared to Linux and the other BSDs.

    Comments

    1. By Anonymous Coward (193.63.217.208) on

      I can only assume they meant "OpenBSD is painfully difficult to use if you are an ignorant journo who knows nothing of UNIX and haven't read the excellent documentation"

    2. By Anonymous Coward (71.0.126.14) on

      The irony being that, as a person who has used about every operating system and multiple flavors of Linux and Windows, I found OpenBSD to be the easiest to learn and operate of any of them. I guess it's because I just need some good documents to tell me how to do it instead of an idiot-freindly hand-holding point-and-clicky UI to half assed do it for me.

    3. By Clay Dowling (12.37.120.99) clay@lazarusid.com on http://www.lazarusid.com/notes/

      OpenBSD is a lot less difficult to use than, for instance, Windows. Sure, Windows makes me feel all warm and fuzzy with the pretty interface, but it isn't any fun to configure network interfaces, firewalls or mail servers on a Windows machine. On OpenBSD all of these activities are very painless: read the man page, follow the directions.

      Comments

      1. By Michael (163.252.218.94) on

        There's also the online FAQ and docs. If the man pages don't have what you are looking for, the main site is nicely organized and relevant. Quality over boundless quantity of information.

        Ever try looking anything up in the Microsoft Knowledge Base? Yikes.
        --Michael

        No flames intended.

  5. By Anonymous Coward (66.44.3.21) on

    It's easy to say that Theo opened his big mouth and screwed up all that grant money, and yeah, I agree with that to an extent. But you know, money or no money, I think he did the right thing.

    Whether it's telling the truth about free software (RE: Linux and non-free drivers), or telling the truth about an unjust war, it's good to see someone living on principles.

    Comments

    1. By Jason Crawford (69.251.48.108) jasonrcrawford@gmail.com on http://purebsd.net/

      As much as I love OpenBSD (I use it at work every day, been buying it since 2.6, and will continue to use it), it wasn't that hard to connect this grant money with the war in the first place. Why else would DARPA want very secure computer software? The war in Iraq was definetly a big need for it, they use computers all the time. He should have voiced his opinion before accepting the grant money to being with. And, when the grant money was taken away, I donated $100 personally because the money was taken. I just think he should have said it to begin with. My $0.02 on this.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (202.45.125.5) on

        I just think he should have said it to begin with.

        I was under the impression that the money was committed well before the war. Before 9/11? Most of the US screens I see in Iraq are running Solaris and Windows. I wouldn't doubt they're also using OpenBSD though.

    2. By ErikTheRed (68.6.193.220) on

      It's easy to say that Theo opened his big mouth and screwed up all that grant money, and yeah, I agree with that to an extent. But you know, money or no money, I think he did the right thing.

      It's always good to express one's views, especially on a topic like this with global implications galore. However - and I haven't seen the remarks in question, I'm just going by reputation - Theo tends to be a bit, shall we say, blunt (to put it very mildly) and acerbic. Disagreeing with people in a polite and respectful manner will burn far fewer bridges, and in some cases may even bring others to your points of view. Ranting tends to be accepted favorably by 'the choir', but turns others away.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (71.0.126.14) on

        I read Theo's remarks back then, and IIRC they were presented as just an opinion and surprisingly non-inflammatory. It seems more a way for the US administration to justify pulling the funding.

        Comments

        1. By Gamera (83.113.217.207) on

          "I read Theo's remarks back then, and IIRC they were presented as just an opinion and surprisingly non-inflammatory. It seems more a way for the US administration to justify pulling the funding." That is also the idea I had, it was a retaliation act against Canada and above all J.-L. Chrétien's decision and great speeches (no, I'm not Canadian) for not joining in the big adventure. Nothing to do with mr DeRaat's words. On top of this, I doubt the current administration supports 'public' anything. So it is a pretty convenient excuse, as you said. I have been toying with the idea of the EU funding Theo's OS. I have worked at ESA and Eumetsat and it would be perfect there in the space industry. Reliable, secure and predictible.

          Comments

          1. By Michael (163.252.218.94) on

            I have been toying with the idea of the EU funding Theo's OS...

            That would be awesome of you.
            Sure, Theo's not trying to get rich, but it would probably be nice if he could pay a couple more developers and put something away for retirement.

            --Michael

            Comments

            1. By Matt (69.60.232.221) on

              Not to mention Theo'd get paid in real money, since the US$ is headed straight toward worthless...

    3. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

      and why the hell is this your concern?
      your only activity is blaberingin here and yet
      not even that grant anyhow affected you neither
      your blabering affects anything.

  6. By Anonymous Coward (81.172.173.155) on

    I can't believe Theo has kissed girls.

  7. By Anonymous Bastard (12.33.195.201) on

    This article is also posted at /.
    - for those of you who like reading the comments.

  8. By Jim (128.36.236.30) on


    I've made my last purchase from the OpenBSD foundation.

    Comments

    1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

      I'm sick of the bad vibes that comes off this Theo dude. I never hear any of the linux users I know slagging OpenBSD, or any of the BSD users. In fact they tend to use a mix as well, as do I. I know Theo and his crew are good coders and know their shit, but this crap is getting tiring.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

        that's only because they can't...
        they know they suck and they just shut their pieholes.

        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

          Thank you for proving my point - another bigot turning more folks off BSD. Way to do us all a service.

          Comments

          1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

            who is these "us" and why should you be cared about?

            Comments

            1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

              This 'us' is rather obvious, don't you think? It's all of us that use OpenBSD and stand to benefit by it's progression. Why should I be cared about? Well, why should *you* be cared about? Why should anyone?

              Comments

              1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                i never said i should be cared about.
                most certainly you should not either.

                Comments

                1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                  You're sad. We should all be cared about as we all have things to contribute.

                  Comments

                  1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                    yeah jesus loves ya. i know.

              2. By SNG (67.189.8.236) on

                I think this pretty much sums up why you are wrong.

                The discussion drifted to comparing Linux adoption with OpenBSD adoption. "Linux has business mindshare," Dale said, "Linux has done a better job of selling itself to businesses." In contrast, he continued, "we don't sell ourselves to customers. We're happy if they use our code, but we don't court them. And sometimes when they dangle money in front of us we say no."

                Dale continued explaining, "we like to feel like we're in control. If they are giving you money, they're in control and can tell you what to do. Most of the developers are doing this all in their spare time, and are not getting paid for it. We want to play, we don't want to have to work."

      2. By Anonymous Coward (69.197.92.181) on

        I see linux users talking shit about the BSDs all the time. Its harder to use, its slower, it can't do all sorts of things that it does just fine. Some even go as far as to say software developers shouldn't spend time making their software work on anything but linux, since BSDs don't matter.

        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

          Well, then they're ignorant fools. That much is obvious. But alot of BSD folks really need to get off their high horse. I keep a foot in both camps, and I can say there's idiots on both sides. As well as good folk. Where I live and with whom I communicate, I see very little (practically none as a matter of fact) acrimony between BSD and linux use. It's nice. Of course, when the OpenBSD leader is the example that he is, it's no wonder Theo's fanboys act the way they do. They can't help. The only thing worse than a linux bigot is a BSD bigot. I used to be a linux bigot, then I opened my eyes to BSD, and now I love both. Why is that so hard for some people to do?

          Comments

          1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

            because linux sucks.

            Comments

            1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

              Weak dude, weak. Why waste time trolling when you can do something to make the world a better place?

              Comments

              1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                i thought posting here *is* making world a better place?

                Comments

                1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                  Sometimes it does, if people are engaged in meaningful conversation. Sometimes just talking might change a person's mind, and that person goes on to do good things. Yeah, these are just posts, but you never know.

                  Comments

                  1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                    i can tell you why you have not changed your mind about
                    linux from reading these posts -- because it's not these
                    posts that can possibly change that. it's actually using
                    and reading the source for that crap that might do it.
                    and obviously you are simply unable to figure it out
                    on your own since you still advocating for linux as
                    an actual usable operating system. you simply have
                    no taste for good software. you do not know good
                    software from bad software.

                    Comments

                    1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                      I disagree; the right tool for the right job. Linux is a highly usable operating system; I should know as I've been making my living using it for a number of years now. Your point has therefore been proven wrong. And I have read parts of the source, and been bothered by it. So what? You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I suppose I shouldn't feed the trolls but I just couldn't resist. Your points are weak and lame.

                      Comments

                      1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                        I forgot to mention that for almost all the years that I've used linux to help make a living, I've also been using OpenBSD. Every year except this year I've purchased CDs. I've spent time spreading the word about OpenBSD, and helping out people who have had problems using it. I am, and continue to be, an OpenBSD advocated. I see nothing odd about also being a Linux advocate at the same time. Open your mind dude, it sounds a little too closed to be healthy.

                      2. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                        bathwater? the baby is rotten from the inside.
                        the bathwater is what you see not the baby.
                        there is nothing really that linux has an exclusive
                        niche for. everything can be done with something else.
                        and the reason you are using it is only because you
                        do not care.

                        Comments

                        1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                          I dunno, this baby seems to be doing quite well and accomplishing all kinds of wonderful things. Your opinions are your opinions. If everything can be done with something else, then you've effectively just promulgated the understanding that the same goes for OpenBSD. You aren't doing yourself any favours here. I think you should take some time out, and reformulate your arguments in such a fashion that they eliminate subjective opinion, and focus on fact and the way the world actually works.

                          Comments

                          1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                            this is typical bullshit. making money or being
                            popular does not make anything right or better.
                            wake up! this is not hollywood! tv does not tell
                            any truth and nothing is real on the blue screen!

                            you did not get it?
                            it's not because openbsd is against linux it is because
                            it has standards for good and bad and that is why it is
                            different. that is why linux objectively sucks. everything
                            i had ever had to use in linux is broken. god damn ls(1)
                            is broken. how hard is that?

                            Comments

                            1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                              You have some problems that I don't think I can help you with. Take care.

                              Comments

                              1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                                of course you can -- grow up!

                                Comments

                                1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                                  I don't think you want me to help you though. You appear to be quite happy in believing that linux is total crap, and it doesn't seem you want your mind to be changed.

                                  Comments

                                  1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                                    so helping me is to make me use linux?
                                    HAHAHAHAHA

                                    Comments

                                    1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                                      No, I never said that. Helping you would be to eliminate your unreasonable prejudices and give you a better understanding.

                                      Comments

                                      1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                                        i have no prejudice against linux.
                                        i am capable of making a decision
                                        by using it and saying -- it's crap.
                                        by looking at the code -- it's a poo.
                                        you think it's different and that makes
                                        it look like crap right? well. crap is
                                        different from stake. does it make it less
                                        crap somehow? you crapwhen you see it.
                                        of course there are also people who like eating crap
                                        and playing with crap and roll in it the whole day long...

                                        Comments

                                        1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                                          wow

                                          Comments

                                          1. By Michael (163.252.218.94) on

                                            Whoa, you guys better stop. The comment tree is getting all off balance and I don't want my browser to tip over.

                                            --Michael

                                            Comments

                                            1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                                              hey you are off-topic ;-)
                                              you just wanna be in the thread dontcha?

                                              Comments

                                              1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                                                lol :)

                                                Comments

                                                1. By Anonymous Coward (68.125.29.245) on

                                                  Uh oh

                                                  Comments

                                                  1. By pdemb (217.98.20.195) on

                                                    Hey, I use both Linux and OpenBSD.

                                                    Comments

                                                    1. By Anonymous Coward (68.125.29.245) on

                                                      There's too much weight on this side.

                                                      Comments

                                                      1. By pdemb (217.98.20.20) on

                                                        Call it 'stress testing'.

                                                        Comments

                                                        1. By Rob Funk (65.25.71.132) on

                                                          Pushing ... undeadly ... to ... the ... limits ....

                                                          Most of the comments here seem to have upped the stress in some people, so if we have to stress the software a bit to relieve some people stress, I'm all for it!

                                                          Comments

                                                          1. By Anonymous Coward (198.175.14.194) on

                                                            meow

                        2. By Anonymous Coward (64.252.44.255) on

                          Last time I checked, Linux was capable of scaling well from embedded devices up to 10,240-processor ( http://www.top500.org/sublist/System.php?TB=2&id=7288 ) supercomputers. Its SMP capabilities are in fact superior to those of OpenBSD.

                          However, OpenBSD also has good security features that Linux lacks.

                          Neither is perfect, and no one can argue that. There is no way to objectively compare the two in a standardized, quantitative way. Ultimately, its a matter of choosing the right tool for each job, and at the hands a good admin, the right tool will run well.

          2. By Anonymous Coward (69.197.92.181) on

            So, first you complain because BSD people badmouth linux, and linux people don't badmouth BSD. Then when I point out that you are full of shit, you say the linux people who badmouth BSD are just some idiots, and still complain about the BSD people who badmouth linux? Get a clue, the people who spend their time badmouthing other stuff are idiots, period. BSD users aren't the problem, a small number of idiots are.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

      > I've made my last purchase from the OpenBSD foundation.

      there is no such thing.
      if you have purchased anything from "openbsd foundation"
      it's probably a reapoff counterfeight...

    3. By brandon (68.237.95.217) on

      When did you make your first purchase? What is this "Foundation" you speak of?

    4. By Gregory (210.54.157.40) on

      After reading this interview along with others Theo has made in the past, I am totally turned off OpenBSD. Theo de Raadt is just plain rude and doesn't deserve my/your support.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (82.152.46.31) on

        Nor does he seek it

        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

          Actually, he does seek your support. Why elese would he sell CDs? Why else would he complain when people d/l stuff and don't buy it? C'mon. It seldom hurts to be a nice guy though. If he tried it and stuck to it, I bet OpenBSD would be alot further along than they are, *without* having to compromise what they believe or stand for.

          Comments

          1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

            nobody likes people who do the right thing
            because doing the right thing includes pissing off
            a lot of idiots who are too lazy to do the right thing.
            so yes -- be hurt. you are an idiot.

            Comments

            1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

              Wow, that's a simple convenient explanation. I hope you believe it and it works for you.

              Comments

              1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                just look back at the history.
                strl* functions -- lots of pissed off idiots.
                random pids -- lots of pissed off idiots.
                w^x -- quite a few pissed off idiots.
                many other examples...

                so what are you suggesting of being nice to other people
                is to just shut up and don't do anything that matters.

                Comments

                1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                  No, you've misinterepted what I said. I never said 'hey, don't do anything that pisses people off'. Of course some people are going to be pissed off. I'm not a religious guy or anything, but sometimes turning the other cheek is a decent approach. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it all... that's the lesson Theo needs to learn. You can say critical things in a nice way, ya know, and do something to resolve them. Now the strl* functions, they're not that great an idea. The world doesn't need more functions, the world needs people who know how to properly use what we already have. People can pervert those functions too you know, and do bad things with them. random pids - Not that a big a deal, if you ask me. w^x - sure it fills up some holes, but it ain't all that and a bag of chips.

                  Comments

                  1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                    you still resisting it...
                    there is no point saying "please pretty please use strl*
                    functions please with a cherry on top".

                    for you it's there. it's done. deal with it.
                    don't like it? bye bye...

                2. By Anonymous Coward (66.44.3.21) on

                  strl* are extremely easy to re-implement. They can be done in 1 or 2 lines each. I don't think glibc's refusal to use them (silly as it may be; Urlich Drepper is a real moron and he has done real harm to Linux) really inhibit developers from using them if they want.

                  As for random pids... Who got really pissed off about those? I'm sure a lot of users wouldn't even notice.

                  W^X might have bugged people because it breaks a lot of JIT code. But, that is simple enough to get around.

                  Comments

                  1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                    as usual you have no idea what are you talking about.
                    people were bitching about both and not for technical reasons.
                    same as now. nobody argues that linux is crap that much
                    it's apparently common to close eyes on this fact though.

                    Comments

                    1. By m0rf (68.104.57.241) on

                      random pids ... i believe it was the qmail people.

                  2. By henning (80.86.183.129) on

                    > W^X might have bugged people because it breaks a lot of JIT code. But,
                    > that is simple enough to get around.

                    it does not and it did not!
                    geez, it doesn't become any more true by repeating over and over!

                    Comments

                    1. By Anonymous Coward (66.44.0.81) on

                      If the JIT code has no calls to mprotect() then yes, it will be broken by the change. Though you can argue that such code is incorrect, sure...

  9. By vtg (194.109.254.76) on

    Forbes has had an anti-linux bent for a while. It's not the most brilliant move of De Raadt to have lent himself for an interview with these guys. Knowing Forbes' history of previous articles it is entirely plausible that the whole interview was diverse and reasonable (like the "compare linux and bsd" article on.. what was it? newsforge? that was all sensible) and that they just dug up some quotes out of context. Gotta love the press. Anyway, it doesn't make linux look good, nor does this kind of publicity reflect well on the OpenBSD project. I use both Linux and OpenBSD to full satisfaction and I must admit that this article ticked me off a bit. I don't like being called an idiot who doesn't recognise garbage. I won't stop using OpenBSD for it because it works fine for me and I overall like thoroughness and attention to detail (can't beat PF), but stuff like this does take away some respect and sympathy for the project. For Forbes it's probably a 'mission accomplished', but not a very clever PR-move overall for OpenBSD.

    Comments

    1. By wob (12.109.229.8) wob@bonch.org on

      This article looks like it has cherrypicked quotes from the past 10 years or so that OpenBSD has existed, and compiled in. I seriously doubt that Theo would sit down with a Forbes interviewer and spew all this angry stuff out. While yes, Theo has some strong opinions, he's not stupid. This looks like it's trying to start a fight between open source projects, and seeing as Forbes has an anti open source bent, this is perfect. Watching some of you fight over this article is exactly what Forbes wants. Good job. Looks like Forbes pulled off the ultimate troll and have sucked a lot of you in.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (64.3.44.11) on

        until theo speaks up and explains whether or not he did give an interview, and whether these quotes represent his views (or are made up, or taken out of context, or something), i'm not going to assume anything.

        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

          it does not seem like there is any necessity for a public
          appology for this interview.

          Comments

          1. By Anonymous Coward (64.3.44.11) on

            i don't think i was implying that there was any necessity, but rather responding to another comment which said that the article was a troll and didn't reflect theo's views. as pointed out in the thread, it does represent theo's views, so we can all return to our exciting lives enriched by this excellent thread.

      2. By vtg (194.109.254.76) on

        Hrmm you might be right. I didn't expect the quotes to be a faithful representation of an interview, but it didn't dawn on me that there might not have been an interview at all.

    2. By Jim (69.182.21.172) on

      "I don't like being called an idiot who doesn't recognise garbage. I won't stop using OpenBSD for it because it works fine for me"

      If the owner of a restaurant feels the need to personally insult me, I will never purchase anything from that establishment again, even if it is the best food in the world.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

        you are fogetting something...
        the owner of the establishment wants something from you.
        i have a feeling nobody from the openbsd project wants
        you or anything from you.
        besides that if you get insulted by linux being called garbage
        then perhaps you are using the wrong operating system...

        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (69.182.21.172) on

          "the owner of the establishment wants something from you.
          i have a feeling nobody from the openbsd project wants
          you or anything from you."

          Actually the OpenBSD project does want things from its supporters:
          http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=search&mode=&thres=&query=donations

          "besides that if you get insulted by linux being called garbage
          then perhaps you are using the wrong operating system..."

          I am not insulted by Linux being called garbage... I am insulted by being called an idiot for using it, and I am insulted by him having said that "I have never kissed a girl." If he had said it to my face instead of indirectly, he would be bleeding on the floor.

          Comments

          1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

            and why do you think those donations are needed?
            perhaps to provide better service to you "the idiot"
            who cannot even appreciate the efforts...

            then you are not called an idiot because you are using linux but
            rather because you refuse to recognise that it is crap and refuse
            to do anything about it. this and the fact you most likely refuse
            to do anything for openbsd either makes you a true idiot!

            Comments

            1. By Anonymous Coward (69.37.245.250) on

              "then you are not called an idiot because you are using linux but
              rather because you refuse to recognise that it is crap and refuse
              to do anything about it. this and the fact you most likely refuse
              to do anything for openbsd either makes you a true idiot!"

              Actually I use Linux because it does things that OpenBSD cannot, such as allow me to use my remote control, infrared port, provide graphics acceleration on my laptop, run an up-to-date version of Mozilla Firefox, and I'm sure a number of other things that I'm forgetting.

              But I guess I'm an idiot for wanting to take full advantage of my hardware.

              Comments

              1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                i suppose you require accelleration in the video card to avoid
                seeing your system painfully crash...

                Comments

                1. By Anonymous Coward (69.37.245.250) on

                  No, actually the only time I've seen my Linux boxes crash is when hardware fails. My OpenBSD box (a sparc64 machine) crashed the last time I tried -current, just a couple of months ago.

                  Comments

                  1. By Dunceor (130.238.5.5) on

                    Then you haven't been using Linux for long. And if you have used OpenBSD you would know that -current is not stable, it might not even boot.

                    Comments

                    1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

                      you don't know what are you talking aboot.
                      -current always works and it most certainly cannot not boot.

              2. By Michael (163.252.218.94) on

                What kind of laptop are you using? Are you talking about an infrared port that's built into the laptop or an add-on? What's the remote control that you want to use?

                --Michael

                Comments

                1. By Anonymous Coward (69.37.245.250) on

                  The remote is an old Hauppauge WinTV remote. The infrared port is built into the laptop (uses the "toshoboe" driver under Linux). The laptop is an old Toshiba Portege 7140.

              3. By naah (80.90.29.23) on

                http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/~checkout~/ports/www/mozilla-firefox/Makefile?rev=1.21.2.1&content-type=text/plain&only_with_tag=OPENBSD_3_7

          2. By Anonymous Coward (12.135.176.137) jayzel@gmail.com on

            An anonymous coward leaving Theo bleeding on the floor? Thats rich, dude.

      2. By Anonymous Coward (213.80.9.187) on

        The restaurant owner didn't insult you. He insulted the McDonalds on the other side of the road. If you eat at McDonalds, it's your problem.

  10. By Bob Beck (129.128.11.43) beck@openbsd.org on

    Darn! I knew something was kind of out of sorts.. Ever since I skipped out on my Wedding Anniversary to speak at BSDCan I've had this strange and unnatural attraction to the linux kernel sources...

    Comments

    1. By Anonymous Coward (12.33.122.68) on

      it's like you know... important and shit

  11. By m0rf (68.104.57.241) on

    mac os x going intel, solaris going open source, its been a bad month for linux zealots.

    guess they found something to rant about to avoid discussing their problems.

    Comments

    1. By thomasw (24.80.39.250) on

      i found the article to clearly state that linux code is more unstable and cluttered than OpenBSD code is.....how is that unfair or rude? it is either a fact or not. learn to read it for yourself and you will know the truth of it.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (218.214.35.235) on

      I dont see why MacOS changing archs has any bearing on linux at all, ditto for solaris being 'open sourced'. 68k -> ppc had no bearing on linux, macos -> maxosx had no bearing on linux, so I believe its safe to say that this move has no bearing on linux either.

      Unless you are one of those people who live or die based upon what Steve Jobs chose to eat for breakfast that morning, or what he wore to work that day, or what precise shade of lilac the new imac will be.

      The grass is green, water is wet, The 2.6.12 kernel is out, and life goes on merrily as always. As it does in BSD land also, would you really expect any less?

      Comments

      1. By Gawd (66.131.207.182) on

        I dont see why MacOS changing archs has any bearing on linux at all, ditto for solaris being 'open sourced'. 68k -> ppc had no bearing on linux, macos -> maxosx had no bearing on linux, so I believe its safe to say that this move has no bearing on linux either.

        I agree with you, to an extent... I think a lot of the Linux crowd (most of them being MS haters, a lot being that because it's 'trendy' in the Linux crowds) want to revert to something simple and braind dead easy to use, so they use RedHat, SuSe, etc. Funny thing to me is, they hate MS so much that they also copy a mimic MS in a lot of ways and yet continue to slander MS...

        I think MacOS X+ on x86 will help convert some of those people, giving them another, perhaps better, alternative to Windows - not all Linux converts use Linux because of it's restrictive open source license, many use it just as an alternative to MS Windows for their own reasons.

        It's all good. It's all about choice! Not Linux 0wnz, everything else not Linux sucks as some tend to try and boast... We're all free to choose what we like best and want or to choose the best tool for the job. That's what freedom is all about.

  12. By Anonymous Coward (217.79.35.14) on

    Boys, boys don;t get angry we all work in the same camp and that is Open Source one ! We all have the right tool for the right job no matter if it is BSD or linux. But i have to admin i love BSD more then Linux. You will ask why ? Well because BSD is the unix tradition and it's _better for me_ in in most of the cases and i use linux because it's _better_ alternative then Windows in alot of ways. As i said all of have the right tool for the right job !!! This is a bad move for the Open Source camp we have to stick together and we will survive as a mass.

    Comments

    1. By Anonymous Coward (67.64.89.177) on

      Disagree, I really like windows better than linux.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (212.36.7.117) on

        Well i;m sorry, but this is your opinion!!!

        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (67.64.89.177) on

          And it is relevant as yours. Get it?

  13. By Anonymous Coward (211.30.147.73) on

    Its really sad that people don't know what's really going on.

    Theo is being made the fool, and the author is secretly laughing about it.

    Did anyone bother to check out Daniel Lyons's past articles? Didn't you all notice a anti-Linux tone in most of what he has written?

    He is anti-Linux, he's using any means necessary to put Linux down publically. He has no ethics and is paid to hate. Even if it takes one open-source project rep to fault Linux.

    This isn't really about OpenBSD vs Linux.

    Its about finding ways to fuck with Linux publically.

    Why can't you all see what's going on?

    Is it gonna be like the Jedi Council?

    Don't know WTF is really happening until its too late?


    Theo is so caught up in being on Forbes, that he has no clue he's been used by someone else, who's intent is knocking on Linux at every turn.

    Its a real shame.

    Comments

    1. By nerveup (80.90.29.23) on

      don't cry. or you will bleed in your bed.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (205.207.98.208) on

      I think it is really sad that theo made these comments. It reflects badly on the OBSD community and it makes him look like either a complete jerk or a very naive man. He may be a good coder but he sure is a PR nightmare. Some one else should do the public speeking + PR for OBSD.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (143.166.226.17) on

        Why? He is right. Very intelligent people are often misunderstood and only years later do people figure out how right they were.

        Comments

        1. By runt123 (205.207.98.208) on

          that is hardly an excuse for his comments. u don't drag urself up by pulling others down. being "brilliant" is not an excuse for being socially inept. his comments damage the reputation and image of the project he founded. granted theo probably does not care since the goals of the project are not to please non-developers. That being said alot of talented developers will not work with OBSD because of these sorts of abrasive comments.

          Comments

          1. By flying_walrus (66.92.16.195) on

            Why do people care that Theo is abrasive? It used to be a person's right to say what they think.

            Why do we need a leader who's politically correct and doesn't offend anyone?

            I believe that Theo's comments reflect an attitude of old-world craftsmanship - he only cares about getting it right. It's not like he goes trolling on slashdot or something.

            so... get over yourself. If you find OpenBSD useful, use it. If you don't, don't. if he offends you, and you find that this gets in the way of your enjoyment of his products, then _stop_using_them_.

            Comments

            1. By runt123 (205.207.98.208) on

              flying_walrus, we were discussing the big picture. for individual users I totally agree with you. if theo pisses U off then don't use OBSD. the problem for OBSD is simply that if theo pisses off to many potential developers you loose out on the larger talent pool. that talent will find other projects to contribute to (for example Niels Provos and his switch to NBSD) to the detriment of OBSD.

              Comments

              1. By Anonymous Coward (66.54.159.162) on

                how is he pissing off potential developers? people who are offended by his comments would not hack on openbsd anyway. if anything, this gets the message out to more people who are sick and tired of crappy software that there are people who don't accept that kind of rubbish. and maybe those people are now looking at openbsd code and working on patches. there is no such thing as bad PR. the only people getting their panties in a twist over this are whining slackers anyway. talk talk talk blah blah blah. they waste their time whining while hackers spend their time hacking. who cares?

                Comments

                1. By runt123 (205.207.98.208) on

                  "people who are offended by his comments would not hack on openbsd anyway." I think this quote is the problem with your argument. Many people would hack on OBSD if it were not for comments like theo made. People are initially attracted to the project because of its stated goals but loose interest because of the abrasive nature of certain members of its community. If you are going to volunteer your free time to a project, why put up with ignorant and abusive behavior?

                  Comments

                  1. By Anonymous Coward (66.54.159.162) on

                    eh, no. openbsd likes people who contribute. why should openbsd care about people who chatter endlessly and contribute nothing? there is already enough talk on misc@. theo demands high quality from the developers, but also treats them well.

                  2. By Chris (24.76.117.234) on

                    If you are going to volunteer your free time to a project, why put up with ignorant and abusive behavior?

                    Why don't you ask the 60+ people at the Hackathon about that?

                    Theo isn't abrasive, he's forthright. If you need your interpersonal communication couched in terms of manager speak and bullshit pandering I can't imagine that you're the kind of person who'd contribute anything worthwhile anyways. Anyone who has the drive to actually contribute anything isn't going to give up because they got their feathers ruffled.

                    Comments

                    1. By runt123 (205.207.98.208) on

                      "If you need your interpersonal communication couched in terms of manager speak and bullshit pandering I can't imagine that you're the kind of person who'd contribute anything worthwhile anyways."

                      Doesn't sound like you have much of an imagination.

                      "Anyone who has the drive to actually contribute anything isn't going to give up because they got their feathers ruffled."

                      My point was that they wouldn't start contributing to OBSD in the first place. Not that they would stop because they got their feathers ruffled once they had started. Some people like you obviously like Theos management style (like your 60 people at the hackathon). Other people/developers won't and they will go work on other projects (and no they are not necessarily worse then the OBSD developers). IMO OBSD is loosing the recruiting battle with other projects because of the comments made by its leader.

                      Comments

                      1. By Chris (24.76.117.234) on

                        And yet OpenBSD continues to be by far the best Open Source Unix variant out there. Don't bother coming back at me with some kind of "That's subjective" argument. The code quality in Open is the best, and every feature I've ever needed has been done properly. More features doesn't help me when the features suck and the documentation sucks or is just NOT THERE.

                        Anyways, I've been paying attention to OpenBSD and the various "dramas" since well before the IPF nonsense, and I have yet to find fault with Theo's position on an issue *or* with the way he's handled anything. Pandering to people who aren't contributing or who need validation from people over the Internet just ends up wasting your time. The proof is in the pudding.

                        My contention is still that most worthwhile developers aren't going to be scared off by Theo's reputed abraisiveness. Futhermore I contend that any that are might be too much trouble to work with anyways. The "recruiting battle" is not the kind of numbers game you seem to think it is.

                        I'm not sure about your imagination-related comment, but I'm sure you've got a non-ad hominem point in there somewhere :)

                        Comments

                        1. By Anonymous Coward (66.54.159.162) on

                          exactly. freebsd has waaaay more developers than openbsd. lets say they have twice as many (they actually have more than twice as many) - but does that mean they are twice as good? of course not. you can't quantify software quality like that. and remember that if all these devs go work on freebsd/netbsd/dragonfly, its still bsd licensed so openbsd can always pull in that code.

  14. By anonymoustroll (210.233.209.250) anonymoustroll@gmail.com on

    Theo needs to spend some quality time at the Linus Torvals School of Charm and Candor. Linus used to be very much like him in a lot of ways, but he was smart enough to take the advice of those around him who knew "the way". But, that's one of the advantages of open source. Otherwise smart people can be essentric without fear of losing their ability to otherwise contribute (but OpenBSD would be a lot more successful if it were a just little better managed). On a personal note, I believe that Theo should have been completely removed from the OpenBSD PR loop (aside from making 4 lettered comments in the source code) after he managed to lose the Air Force DARPA grant. He screwed up some very important plans for deploying OpenBSD within a community that traditionally has been unreasonablly Microsoft and cisco Centric.... thanks a lot a**hole. It's one thing to be opinionated or fight for a good cause, it's quite another thing to make people look like shmucks for recomending you system and generally hoble a project that you have been working on for a significant portion of your life by alienating a community that has traditionally supported your work.

    Sometimes less is better.

    > Too bad they threw this in at the end: OpenBSD is painfully difficult to use...

    Yeah... just the other day I needed to stand up a box to do some domain catch all forwarding to gmail. I was sitting there looking at Linux installation disk, a Solaris instllation disks and an OpenBSD instllation disk. This was on a Sunday before I had to go to work the next day; I didn't want to spend a lot of time spinning such a simple box up. Guess which I used... that's right OpenBSD. Less than an hour later, the gmail box was filling up with messages.

    Sometimes Less *IS* (much) Better.

    At the same time, I still long for a laptop vendor who sells OpenBSD pre-installed.

    Comments

    1. By Anonymous Coward (66.54.159.162) on

      since you are clearly so much better at management than theo, go take the openbsd code and start up a new project which does things properly. i look forward to seeing your success.

      Comments

      1. By Chris (24.76.117.234) on

        That's just a stupid thing to say.

  15. By Anonymous Coward (192.133.42.1) on

    Sobering to see Theo (the FreeBird) in an issue of Forbes with 100 celebrities. If Oprah Winfrey is # 1, does that make Theo # 101?

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