OpenBSD Journal

Adobe Donates $7,500

Contributed by jolan on from the how-about-opensourcing-flash-and-acrobat-reader-too dept.

As is now visible on the donations page, Adobe has donated $7,500 to help fund OpenBSD and OpenSSH development. Hopefully as more well-known companies demonstrate that they understand that giving back to open source helps themselves, it will become harder for the others to justify their all-take-and-no-give feeling of entitlement.

(Comments are closed)

Comments

  1. By Anonymous Coward (209.49.5.252) on

    finaly companies are coming out of the wood work!

    Comments

    1. By Anonymous Coward (24.84.108.32) on

      Both Google and Adobe it's claimed made sizable donations, but have they output any press releases to that effect? I would expect something like "Google is proud to contribute towards a project which helps ensure the security of the internet..." but not even a footnote.

      I don't expect the OpenBSD guys are making this up -- my surprise comes from the companies that don't take advantage of the PR value to make them seem like the good community players (save those absolutely amazing community-oriented companies Mozilla and Godaddy).

  2. By Noryungi (83.202.104.178) n o r y u n g i @ y a h o o . c o m on

    This is really good, but Adobe could have given a bit more to match the other donations. Nevertheless, it's greatly appreciated, especially since Adobe has been a user of OpenBSD for a long time now.

  3. By James Reynolds (128.233.48.247) on

    Does anyone else think these donations on are on the low end of the scale?
    OpenSSH is integral to communicating securely to remote computers. I can't be entirely sure but I'm willing to bet that many companies like Adobe and Google use it ALOT. They couldn't get a replacement for $10,000. Google earned hundreds of millions of dollars last year. I don't mean to be disrepectful, all I did was buy a t-shirt, but I would call them _CHEAP_.

    Corporate america doesn't deserve anything!

    Comments

    1. By Pete (66.134.79.50) on

      > Does anyone else think these donations on are on the low end of the scale?
      > OpenSSH is integral to communicating securely to remote computers. I can't be entirely sure but I'm willing to bet that many companies like Adobe and Google use it ALOT. They couldn't get a replacement for $10,000. Google earned hundreds of millions of dollars last year. I don't mean to be disrepectful, all I did was buy a t-shirt, but I would call them _CHEAP_.
      >
      > Corporate america doesn't deserve anything!

      It may sometimes be difficult for Corporate America to donate to a non non-profit or to justify it to their shareholders/etc. They're in the business to make money, not be morally obliged to help those who help them. That being said, has anyone started work on a Non-Profit for OBSD? If not, I may take the helm to get it rolling.

      Comments

      1. By Charles (216.229.170.65) on

        > > Does anyone else think these donations on are on the low end of the scale?
        > > OpenSSH is integral to communicating securely to remote computers. I can't be entirely sure but I'm willing to bet that many companies like Adobe and Google use it ALOT. They couldn't get a replacement for $10,000. Google earned hundreds of millions of dollars last year. I don't mean to be disrepectful, all I did was buy a t-shirt, but I would call them _CHEAP_.
        > >
        > > Corporate america doesn't deserve anything!
        >
        > It may sometimes be difficult for Corporate America to donate to a non non-profit or to justify it to their shareholders/etc. They're in the business to make money, not be morally obliged to help those who help them. That being said, has anyone started work on a Non-Profit for OBSD? If not, I may take the helm to get it rolling.

        * * *
        I did, then I read the excert below about someone else who look into this and found the nightmare that is the U.S. IRS waiting...

        Here's another funny thing: if you choose to incorporate as a non-profit
        entity in the United States, then you subject yourself to a number of
        rigorous IRS tax tests. One of these tests is the "public support test."
        If you say you're a public charity, well by golly, you have to prove it.
        If, within four years, you aren't collecting fully one third of your money
        from public sources, then you're not actually a public charity.

        People are always shocked when we tell them how many resources Red Hat
        puts into Fedora. If we were to make the Fedora Foundation a truly
        independent entity, then we'd have to track every dime of that expense as
        "in-kind contributions". That means we'd have to track:

        * The cost of bandwidth for distributing Fedora to the world;

        * Every hour that Red Hat engineers spend working on Fedora, whether that
        is the actual writing of code, release engineering, testing, etc.;

        * Legal expenses of running a Foundation;

        * Administrative expenses of running a Foundation.

        As an intellectual exercise, let's ignore all of those numbers for now
        except for bandwidth. Back in the day, when Red Hat would release a
        distro, we would regularly get angry calls from network admins at big
        datacenters, complaining that we were eating all of their bandwidth. If
        you ever meet any of our IT guys over a beer, be sure to ask them about
        the time we melted a switch at UUNet.

        The demand for Fedora is every bit as high, and the March 20 release of
        Fedora Core 5 was no exception. So let's take a conservative guess and
        say that the bandwidth cost for distributing Fedora comes to $1.5 million
        a year. Yes, even though we have BitTorrent trackers and Fedora mirror
        sites worldwide.

        That means that a public Fedora Foundation would have to raise $750k in
        public funds -- remember the one-third public support test -- every single
        year, just to pay for *bandwidth*, assuming no growth and no other
        expenses.

        So what would happen, under such a scenario, if Red Hat were to decide to
        spend more money on Fedora? Because that's exactly what Red Hat wants to
        do.

        There were alternatives to the public charity angle. We could have set up
        a private operating foundation, and we explored this avenue -- but then it
        wouldn't really be an independent entity. It would be a shell. The fact
        that Red Hat would still likely bear the legal risk of Foundation
        decisions, and the complication of raising public funds, made any 501(c)
        less attractive.

        In short: the fund raising burden for a truly independent Fedora
        Foundation would be terrifying. So the Fedora Foundation clearly wasn't
        compelling as a fund raising entity -- if anything, it represented an
        impediment to building a better Fedora Project.

        Comments

        1. By tedu (69.12.168.114) on

          same thing happened to freebsd foundation. they received too much corporate support, so they had to start asking for personal donations or they'd stop being a non-profit.

      2. By Shane J Pearson (202.45.125.5) on

        > It may sometimes be difficult for Corporate America to donate to a non non-profit or to justify it to their shareholders/etc. They're in the business to make money, not be morally obliged to help those who help them. That being said, has anyone started work on a Non-Profit for OBSD? If not, I may take the helm to get it rolling.

        I would have thought that donations at this low level, would generate more publicity and interest in the company which is worth more than the donation itself. PS, the CAPTCHA characters can be REALLY hard to make out.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (66.219.139.194) on

      It may not be as much as they could have donated, but it's a nice amount to receive. That's several plane tickets and food/lodging for a hackathon. If every big company that depended on OpenSSH/OpenBSD gave like that, there would be plenty of money to have lots of hackathons.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (69.70.207.240) on

        > It may not be as much as they could have donated, but it's a nice amount to receive. That's several plane tickets and food/lodging for a hackathon. If every big company that depended on OpenSSH/OpenBSD gave like that, there would be plenty of money to have lots of hackathons.
        >
        >

        And these hackathons always result in amazing results!

    3. By Anonymous Coward (209.183.142.171) on

      > Does anyone else think these donations on are on the low end of the scale?
      > OpenSSH is integral to communicating securely to remote computers. I can't be entirely sure but I'm willing to bet that many companies like Adobe and Google use it ALOT. They couldn't get a replacement for $10,000. Google earned hundreds of millions of dollars last year. I don't mean to be disrepectful, all I did was buy a t-shirt, but I would call them _CHEAP_.
      >
      > Corporate america doesn't deserve anything!

      Sure, that was the premise of the fundraising drive in the first place (or at least one of the bigger ones). Cheapness aside, the project is still nearly $40k better off from large donations then it was a few months ago. It'd make more sense to bash the companies that haven't donated yet.

      On another topic and just to make sure, these donations have all been in American dollars right? Not that there's such a huge difference with the Canadian dollar anymore...

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (149.169.206.30) on

        > On another topic and just to make sure, these donations have all been in American dollars right? Not that there's such a huge difference with the Canadian dollar anymore...

        If I wanted a dollar every time I had 75 cents, I'd be Canada!

        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (209.183.142.171) on

          > > On another topic and just to make sure, these donations have all been in American dollars right? Not that there's such a huge difference with the Canadian dollar anymore...
          >
          > If I wanted a dollar every time I had 75 cents, I'd be Canada!

          I suggest you check your figures ;)

        2. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.208.173) on

          > > On another topic and just to make sure, these donations have all been in American dollars right? Not that there's such a huge difference with the Canadian dollar anymore...
          >
          > If I wanted a dollar every time I had 75 cents, I'd be Canada!

          Americans should pay much closer attention to what Mr. Bush is doing with their economy. At the end of the Clinton administration, the Canadian dollar had plunged to nearly 60 cents US, and everyone was speculating we would be looking at the 50 cents 'real soon'. What a change a change in administration can make. The Bush Administration takes over and around a 50% increase in the American national debt later (gigantic DARPA savings not withstanding), and the Canadian dollar is now sitting at 90 cents US! Current speculation is we may surpass the value of the US dollar 'real soon'.

          Hey ... if things get too bad down there, we can offer you a free operating system =)

          Comments

          1. By Clay Dowling (12.37.120.99) clay@lazarusid.com on http://www.ceamus.com

            > Hey ... if things get too bad down there, we can offer you a free operating system =)

            We'll take that operating system and raise you some cotton.

            The decline in the American dollar wasn't an accident, but a very carefully thought out plan. The dollar had been way too high for a long time, and was causing a problem with exports, which was not helping the economy at all. Of course, now it costs me a lot more to buy that nice German sports car, but its made used domestics a lot more appealing (perversely, that includes the Honda that I bought last fall).

            I does stink that it's now a lot more expensive for me to go to Canada, but I'm not doing that regularly any more anyway.

            Comments

            1. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.208.173) on

              [SNIP] ... but a very carefully thought out plan .. [SNIP]

              This isn't a political forum, so this is my last post on the topic. To be honest I have a hard time buying the arguement that *anything* Mr. Bush has done qualifies as 'very carefully thought out'. In theory, a lower dollar should be good for American exports, but look at the reality. Your trade deficit is at unsustainable record high, and China produces almost everything you buy (lobsided trade with China is becoming an issue here in Canada too, but it is still under the public radar). While the troubles of the American car companies can't fairly be blamed on Mr. Bush, he hasn't helped either ... he subsidized the sale of Hummers for Christ's sake, how stupid is that? Too much dogma and crusading, too little common sense -- this administration just never lets fact influence its decisions. Did I mention the national debt? The Clinton administration was the first administration in decades to actually start paying it down. Under Mr. Bush it has gone from 5 to 8 trillion, and is climbing at roughly 2 billion a day (and he is talking about getting the spending deficit under control ... some day...) I won't get into effect on civil liberties, human rights, and international relations. You need to change your government my friends, before you are *completely* fucked over.


    4. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

      > Corporate america doesn't deserve anything!

      Just remember that not so long ago, none of them donated.

      It's BSD, and they can do anything they like with it, it is really very kind of them to donate.

      The ball has started rolling, and I think the Mozilla foundation are largely to thank for that.

      Comments

      1. By James Reynolds (128.233.48.247) on

        > It's BSD, and they can do anything they like with it, it is really very kind of them to donate.

        Yes you have your freedom. Everyone needs this.

        What gets me is the short term agenda and how it is viewed as healthy or necessary. Why not support those who support you? I do that all the time in my personal relationshapes. Corporations and shareholders pass the blame to one another but it amounts to a pile of shit.

        If you want software support its development. If you want a good society promote the things you need!

        I'm picking on Google here because I know they've made somewhere over 750 million _PROFIT_ so I feel confident that a $10,000 dollars is really just a kick in the balls. I don't speak for anyone. It's my opinion. But the fact that they donated means that they are using and value it. I would just like to see a more substantial donation from these MULTI_MILLION_DOLLAR Corporations. I'm surprised to see people accepting $10,000 dollars as a lot of money towards the project.

        multi million multi million. i'll say it again. $10,000 dollars is not alot of money from a multi million dollar company for one of the most basic of services.


        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (198.175.14.5) on

          > I don't speak for anyone. It's my opinion. But the fact that....
          > blah...blah...blah....

          If you don't speak for anyone, then shut the fuck up.

    5. By Anonymous Coward (70.124.65.113) on

      I'm curious why you seem to focus on corporate America. Like there aren't big companies in Europe or Canada that use OpenSSH? Where's the $10,000 donations from Ericsson, Siemens, etc.?

      Or are Americans uniquely evil in the world for having corporations and making money?

      Telling others what to do with their money is the first warning sign of being a sanctimonius dipshit; seek help now before it's too late.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (128.233.48.247) on


        > Telling others what to do with their money is the first warning sign of being a sanctimonius dipshit; seek help now before it's too late.
        >

        They aren't others they are organizations (corporations) and are supposed to be responsible to the public. Ie, not put them in harms way. Take a look around you and tell me that they are doing fine!

        I choose to speak up. Business is killing you!

      2. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.208.173) on

        > I'm curious why you seem to focus on corporate America. Like there aren't big companies in Europe or Canada that use OpenSSH? Where's the

        I don't know about Europe, but sadly there aren't too many 'big Canadian companies' remaining -- with a few notable exceptions, most have been purchased by bigger American companies. And ... get this ... the politican responsible still walks around the country a free man ... Canadians are an amazingly tolerant people taken as whole, don't you think?

        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (66.11.66.41) on

          > And ... get this ... the politican responsible still walks around the country a free man ... Canadians are an amazingly tolerant people taken as whole, don't you think?

          Yes, we are. Which politician exactly bears sole responsibility for U.S. companies buying Canadian companies?

          Comments

          1. By Chris (24.76.100.162) on

            > > And ... get this ... the politican responsible still walks around the country a free man ... Canadians are an amazingly tolerant people taken as whole, don't you think?
            >
            > Yes, we are. Which politician exactly bears sole responsibility for U.S. companies buying Canadian companies?

            Probably means Mulroney. NAFTA.

            Comments

            1. By Anonymous Coward (203.106.58.170) on

              Is it possible to give donation using e-currency like e-bullion and e-gold?

              -anonymous coward-

      3. By Clay Dowling (12.37.120.99) clay@lazarusid.com on http://www.ceamus.com

        > Telling others what to do with their money is the first warning sign of being a sanctimonius dipshit; seek help now before it's too late.
        >

        Glad to hear I'm not alone in thinking that. Nobody is likely to call me a conservative without getting laughed at, and I still find this shocking. It's their money, and they don't have any obligation to give it to anybody else. Damned nice of Adobe, Google, Mozilla and others to send some of it towards OpenBSD.

        I don't think people should start shouting for social consciousness on the part of these large companies. OpenBSD would be near the bottom of that list. There would be a lot more social benefits, and benefit that they could see directly, if they gave that same money to local churches and youth groups. If the companies had to choose the local charities or OpenBSD, I'd prefer they gave to the local charities. Lives don't depend on hackathons; they do depend on soup kitchens and youth mentoring programs.

    6. By tedu (69.12.168.114) on

      > Corporate america doesn't deserve anything!

      what does corporate not-america deserve?

      Comments

      1. By James Reynolds (128.233.48.247) on

        I chose those words because I have had direct experience with corporate america. I have not lived any where else.

        " why support people who don't care about you? "

        My point being they don't deserve any of your support.


        > > Corporate america doesn't deserve anything!
        >
        > what does corporate not-america deserve?

      2. By Anonymous Coward (84.188.243.35) on

        > > Corporate america doesn't deserve anything!
        >
        > what does corporate not-america deserve?

        Linux *hrhr* ;)

        Well at the end it is nice that EVEN american companies donate.

    7. By Anonymous Coward (207.41.234.174) on

      > Does anyone else think these donations on are on the low end of the scale?
      > OpenSSH is integral to communicating securely to remote computers. I can't be entirely sure but I'm willing to bet that many companies like Adobe and Google use it ALOT. They couldn't get a replacement for $10,000. Google earned hundreds of millions of dollars last year. I don't mean to be disrepectful, all I did was buy a t-shirt, but I would call them _CHEAP_.
      >
      > Corporate america doesn't deserve anything!

      As I have always been told: beggars can't be choosers. Money is coming in from big companies, a first IIRC. And you want to whine about it. Personally, I'm pleased about it and welcome any donations to the project.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (83.77.88.137) on

        'Unfortunately' corporations have a legal obligation to make a profit.
        Corporations will do anything to externalize costs.

        A lot of donations coming from corporations depend on the perseverance
        of individuals within the corporation.
        Although it may fly in the face of common decency, don't take a donation
        from a corporation that makes a multi-[m|b]illion dollar profit for granted.
        In the end it depends on individuals within the corporations making an effort.

        Comments

        1. By Anonymous Coward (198.175.14.5) on

          > 'Unfortunately' corporations have a legal obligation to make a profit.
          > Corporations will do anything to externalize costs.
          >
          > A lot of donations coming from corporations depend on the perseverance
          > of individuals within the corporation.
          > Although it may fly in the face of common decency, don't take a donation
          > from a corporation that makes a multi-[m|b]illion dollar profit for granted.
          > In the end it depends on individuals within the corporations making an effort.
          >
          >

          Public corporations have obligations to their shareholders, but other than that, there is no "legal obligation to make a profit", it's simply an obvious motivation of anyone who owns a corporation. A corporation by itself is simply a legally defined entity, it's not obligated to do anything except maybe pay the secretary of state every year and file annual reports.

    8. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

      > Corporate america doesn't deserve anything!

      You do not deserve anything either

  4. By Daniel Melameth (63.228.87.153) on

    Wow--kudos to the people, who are probably working their asses off, who are getting these for-profit corporations to give money to a non-non-profit group.

    We all owe you a big thank you. Well done.

    Comments

    1. By Robert Loblaw (call me Bob) (207.61.43.14) spamtrap@deathstar.com on http://deathstar.com

      > Wow--kudos to the people, who are probably working their asses off, who are getting these for-profit corporations to give money to a non-non-profit group.
      >
      > We all owe you a big thank you. Well done.

      I know how hard it can be to get your employer to donate. No matter the size of the company, they all seem to be "barely subsisting". I guess we can blame that on clever accounting to minimize corporate taxes to be paid. I know from experience at my employer that getting them to even buy the CDs has been a chore. But I consider a personal victory that I even have some OpenBSD servers on the floor.

      So the simple fact that cheque for $7500 or $10k comes from any of these companies is to be celebrated for sure.

      In my mind, it would be an even bigger victory, however, to have a major company commit to a yearly $1,000 contribution instead of a one-off $10k contribution. It is a much easier pill for accounting departments to swallow. Imagine the day there are 500 corporate users contributing $1,000 / year to the project.

      Would it be possible to set up an "OpenBSD administrators guild" with dues, etc such that sysadmins could "join" and expense the membership dues to their employer? These dues would then be passed along to the OBSD/OSSH projects, less the administrative expenses. Then, all of us gainfully employed OpenBSD evangelists/admins/users can get our employers to commit to regular, yearly contributions to the cause.

      The idea is to not have the donations considered as such. Instead, they are memberships. This comes out of the same fiscal budgets as education and training. All those Oracle junkets the DBAs go on or trips to SANS, well, an OBSD administrators guild could be considerd as just another industry affiliation. Just another item to be purchased in the store along with CDs and T-shirts and posters. If we can get our employer to pay for that, but not t-shirts or other swag, then why not offer something like that? $100/year, £100/year, 100euro/year, whatever. That way, a company's overall donation to OpenBSD/OpenSSH is up to the admins that use it. More admins, more donations. Tie a company's contributions to their active sys-admin base.

      Ok, I stop evangelizing now.

      Cheers,

      /bobloblaw

  5. By Nicolai (12.216.45.89) on http://www.public.iastate.edu/~free-unix/OpenBSD/

    Wow... considering my opinion of the Adobe corporation before this donation, it helps put the character of Sun into perspective.

    Don't buy Sun, eh?

    Comments

    1. By SH (82.182.103.172) on

      > Wow... considering my opinion of the Adobe corporation before this donation, it helps put the character of Sun into perspective.
      >
      > Don't buy Sun, eh?

      undeadly runs on a Sun.

      Comments

      1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

        > undeadly runs on a Sun. as does openbsd.org

      2. By Nicolai (12.216.45.89) on

        > > Wow... considering my opinion of the Adobe corporation before this donation, it helps put the character of Sun into perspective.
        > >
        > > Don't buy Sun, eh?
        >
        > undeadly runs on a Sun.

        Well then I'm glad I'm not looking to buy undeadly...

    2. By Anonymous Coward (67.115.118.49) on

      Er, where's OpenOffice coming from already?
      Java anyone?..

      Comments

      1. By Joachim Schipper (149.9.0.25) on

        > Er, where's OpenOffice coming from already?
        > Java anyone?..

        The first one isn't ported yet, and while good work has been done on the latter, it's hard to classify as anything but 'clunky'. And there are quite a few battles being fought over the (not-so) Open Source-ness of Java.

        Joachim

    3. By Anonymous Coward (194.160.143.2) on

      Wow, how blind are you ;-)
      How much spend Adobe, until yet, on OpenSource?
      How much Sun?
      So, next time,pls, think before you write.

  6. By Anonymous Coward (151.37.24.150) on

    This is really weird. I would have preferred to see those $7500 spent by Adobe to make a port of the Flash player to BSD. Or, even better, make Flash a public format...

    Comments

    1. By SH (82.182.103.172) on

      > This is really weird. I would have preferred to see those $7500 spent by Adobe to make a port of the Flash player to BSD. Or, even better, make Flash a public format...

      Adobe could have decided not to donate, but they did. A simple
      "thank you" suffice.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (84.188.243.35) on

      > This is really weird. I would have preferred to see those $7500 spent by Adobe to make a port of the Flash player to BSD. Or, even better, make Flash a public format...

      Sure.. lets have a FLASH-Port to the also the commercials wich are NOT added via Google-Adds, PopUps, iFrames and other crap...
      I realy missed the FLASH-Commercials....

      But hey... they donated. Yes they may could have donated more but be happy that they donated.....

    3. By tedu (69.12.168.114) on

      > Or, even better, make Flash a public format...

      i guess it's a good thing it already is.

      Comments

      1. By Charles (24.32.250.89) on

        > > Or, even better, make Flash a public format...
        >
        > i guess it's a good thing it already is.
        >

        I don't think it is anymore. If you want the specs to Flash 8 you agree not to use them to create a player program, if you can believe that.

        http://www.adobe.com/licensing/developer/fileformat/faq/

        Can I use the File Format Specification to create a SWF interpreter or player?

        No, the File Format Specification is provided for the specific purpose of enabling software applications to export to the Macromedia Flash File Format (SWF).

        Can I use the File Format Specification to create a Flash Video encoder or a Flash Video streaming service?

        No, the File Format Specification is provided for the specific purpose of enabling software applications to export to the Macromedia Flash File Format (SWF).

        Comments

        1. By tedu (69.12.168.114) on


          > I don't think it is anymore. If you want the specs to Flash 8 you agree not to use them to create a player program, if you can believe that.

          you can use it to create a program which writes swf. then i can use your program to write a program which plays the files you write. :)

          afair, the previous specs had no such restriction though they don't seem available from adobe anymore. you snooze, you lose...

  7. By Anonymous Coward (203.113.234.21) on

    I'm trying to think of something I can do for Adobe


    Lets see

    will use GoDaddy in the future for domain name regs, they have good prices anyway

    Use/recommend mozilla more

    Use google more


    hmmm adobe, make more pictures in photoshop?

    Comments

    1. By Anonymous Coward (70.179.123.124) on

      construct your house out of it :p

  8. By Anonymous Coward (196.27.69.33) on

    $7,500 is better than nothing. But why has Adobe not reported their donation on their website or elsewhere. Anyone got a good answer?

    Comments

    1. By tedu (69.12.168.114) on

      > $7,500 is better than nothing. But why has Adobe not reported their donation on their website or elsewhere. Anyone got a good answer?

      maybe they just wanted to make a donation without turning it into a PR stunt.

      "omg omg! somebody did something nice without bragging about it! how dare they! omg! ponies!"

    2. By Antonio Patriarca (151.50.73.234) on

      > $7,500 is better than nothing. But why has Adobe not reported their donation on their website or elsewhere. Anyone got a good answer?

      I think their clients aren't really interested in opensource. They use Win and Mac not OpenBSD. This donations doesn't help Adobe to sell more. They gave this money only to not be considered a bad company.
      Sorry for the english but it isn't my mother language.

  9. By Anonymous Coward (68.54.241.32) on

    How much did Force10 donate?

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