OpenBSD Journal

The Jem Report: Linux supporters fiddle while OpenSSH burns

Contributed by jolan on from the /**/ dept.

Jem Matzan has written an article entitled "Linux supporters fiddle while OpenSSH burns" which goes into incredible depth detailing how OpenBSD and OpenSSH are interwined and the benefits of such a relationship. Jem Matzan even contacted several vendors and asked for comments on the OpenBSD / OpenSSH funding situation and met with rather odd results.

(Comments are closed)


Comments
  1. By Anonymous Coward (131.130.1.135) on

    While everyone is free to complain about companies who make money of OS software (whether it's licensed under GPL oder BSD or whatever) those companies are also free about making money of this OS software. All we can do is complain on moral grounds, at most.

    Comments
    1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

      IBM will no longer have anywhere to send their customers

      "I'm sorry but we cannot fix that bug as the group which maintained that particular bit of software have gone bankrupt, because we could not be bothered to support them financially witha small portion of the money our customers gave us for free software and support contracts"

      Comments
      1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

        </sarcasm>

        Comments
        1. By Anonymous Coward (157.161.253.154) on

          IBM sending customers away saying it's OpenSSH's fault
          must be the most retarded and unprofessional thing
          I've heard about IBM in a long time.

          Of course it's a large company with ample possibility of making
          a fool of it's self, but this is taking the biscuit.

          Comments
          1. By Anonymous Coward (84.188.214.210) on

            Why not telling these customers: IBM takes OpenSOurce and don´t even SUPPORT us (as Project) to carry on. Please tell IBM that you dislike this attitude because we`re NOT related to IBM.

            Some negative puplicity.. ;)

            Comments
            1. By Anonymous Coward (32.97.110.142) on

              Hi guys, could someone please provide a link to the post that covers this on the mailing list about this? I want to spread it around, if you know what I mean. :)

  2. By Anonymous Coward (80.108.115.184) on

    strlcpy and strlcat are not C libraries, but functions of stdlib.

  3. By Anonymous Coward (24.34.57.27) on

    Do we really need to re-do this flame war all over again? That article is one giant troll if I ever saw one.

    "OpenSSH: you'll miss it when it's gone"

    Sorry, but OpenSSH will live on. It only takes one dedicated person to see to that.

    Comments
    1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

      While it's possible, are there really advantages to allowing a sole-developer maintain OpenSSH ?

      http://openssh.org/history.html

      Comments
      1. By Thorsten Glaser (213.196.226.129) on http://mirbsd.de/

        For your information, it's openssh.com not .org

        PS: Thanks to Daniel & Co. for making "Plain text" default.

        Comments
    2. By Anonymous Coward (67.64.89.177) on

      Sure written by some idiots that have no clue. SunSSH is a direct descendent of OpenSSH. It is a steaming pile of crap that can't be trusted. Sure, go ahead fork!

    3. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.119) on

      To some extent, I agree with the poster ... at least the 'flame' part. The article is presenting OpenBSD's quest for some sponsorship and support in a way that is giving negative publicity to some of the companies we would like to help out with donations or whatever. If this reflects back on the OpenBSD project, it may well be burning bridges with companies that haven't supported OpenBSD/OpenSSH yet, but in theory at least *might* in the future. Creating bad blood is a sure way to make sure this never happens. Just my opinion ...

      Comments
      1. By RC (71.105.45.69) on

        You can't "burn bridges" when there aren't any bridges there to begin with...

        Comments
        1. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.119) on

          Point taken. But nuances of phrasing aside, I'm sure you know what I mean =)

          Comments
          1. By RC (71.105.45.69) on

            Okay, forget the analogy then:

            If these companies were offering a small ammount of support, you would have a point. Since they're offering NO support, there's nothing those companies could do that could make the situation worse...

            Shaming them into cooperating might help, but even if not, it's better than doing nothing, and just hoping they'll suddenly change their policy.

      2. By Anonymous Coward (70.179.123.124) on

        Public shaming can be a powerful tool, and we need to start doing it.

        How else would you have it done? Nicely?

        Comments
        1. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.119) on

          At risk of being redundant -- when you set up an adversarial environment, positions tend to become entrenched. I would try to give positive publicity to those that provide support. That said, I'm have my doubts that either approach will achieve the desired result, and I think most support will continue to come from joe-user who has supported OpenBSD in the past ... I'd very much like to be wrong, and see either approach work.

          Comments
          1. By Theo (199.185.136.4) on

            > At risk of being redundant -- when you set up an adversarial
            > environment, positions tend to become entrenched. I would try
            > to give positive publicity to those that provide support.

            Yes, this is Theo. I rarely respond here.

            So exaclty who gives support? Who deserves positive publicity?

            The 18 individuals who donated $1000 specifically to OpenSSH over 5 years? I could name they but they did not ask for that. Noone else has specifically donated to OpenSSH.

            Are you deluded, or are you just plain STUPID? No, that's not really a question. If you are going to make statements like that shown above, and you get it that completely wrong you are either (1) being "adversarial" yourself, or (2) stupid. This is a commmunity. You are an imposter, or you are stupid. There are no other possibilities, right?

            Comments
            1. By cfrankb (24.20.163.228) on

              A/C said he has "doubts" and would "very much like to be wrong." So I'm confused; please specify his point that's "completely wrong" and came from someone who's an "imposter," "deluded," "adversarial," and/or "stupid."

            2. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.119) on

              'dig' implies you could indeed be Theo. If so, it is great to hear your opinion! However, your post implies you are bit frustrated and bummed out with the funding problem. I hope my reply doesn't just serve to bait you. Hey ... we are all stupid, it is just a question of 'when' and 'about what'.

              A bit of confrontation certainly does work sometimes. Knowing when to squeal loudly, and when to stick with meek and polite (and risk being ignored) is a tough call. But consider, there are some battles that were never open to being won in the first place -- no matter how they are approached. Perhaps Sun supporting OpenSSH was never in the cards. If that is the case, then publically derided them for it won't help or hurt this time around. But if you go too far and they label you as disagreeable, it may become a lot harder to elicit their cooperation on some future issue.

              Anyway ... just my opinion. Some agree and some do not. Think about it and take it for what you feel it is worth. Cheers!

              Comments
              1. By Janne Johansson (130.237.95.193) jj@inet6.se on

                "But if you go too far and they label you as disagreeable, it may become a lot harder to elicit their cooperation on some future issue."

                I must admit to not understand big finance, but if the $big_company has
                been screwing you over for 5+ years (or more?) then toe-stepping around them in hopes of getting some candy in the future sounds like a waste.

                Comments
                1. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.119) on

                  That's a valid perspective. I guess I tend to look at the inverse. Why get my hands dirty if there is nothing to be gained by taking off the gloves?

                  Comments
                  1. By Anonymous Coward (172.182.108.150) on

                    If you wear your gloves for that long you most probably will want to let your hands get some fresh air or some soap.

                  2. By Chris (24.76.100.162) on

                    How many years of being friendly and asking nice do you propose a person or group put up with before they change tact? Should this hypothetical group keep saying "Just one more year, then we might see a change!"?
                    <p>
                    As far as I can see, your attitude is an excuse to never do anything but play nice, because something negative *might* happen if you don't, despite the fact that something negative is *already* happening due to your playing nice.

              2. By Anonymous Coward (216.135.89.5) on

                Huh?

                16 p3-0-S1.bb1.cal1.rogerstelecom.net (204.50.128.13) 87.856 ms 88.074 ms 88.200 ms
                17 g5-0-0-S1.gw1.cal1.rogerstelecom.net (204.50.251.195) 157.077 ms 85.575 ms 92.426 ms
                18 Z-s0-0-0-24-S1.gw1.cal1.rogerstelecom.net (207.107.204.178) 88.211 ms 87.878 ms 89.602 ms
                19 pf.openbsd.org (199.185.230.2) 90.408 ms 89.131 ms 90.434 ms
                20 u.openbsd.org (199.185.136.4) 92.842 ms 93.313 ms 92.747 ms

  4. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

    Unfortunatly the article fails to mention how supporting OpenBSD development supports OpenSSH development, or to put it another way, how they are intertwined.

    To quote Damien Miller

    "The second consumer of funds above refers to the annual hackathons that the OpenBSD project runs. These provide a forum where major functionality improvements can be initiated, fleshed out, reviewed and committed. The last two hackathons alone have been directly responsible for:

    - Fixing of dozens of bugs
    - The addition of connection multiplexing
    - The idea for the layer-2/layer-3 VPN over SSH released in 4.3
    - The implementation of auto-reexecution
    - Many proactive signed vs. unsigned integer cleanups"

    Of course, by far the most secure platform to run sshd is still OpenBSD.

    Comments
    1. By Anonymous Coward (71.41.115.162) on

      Obviously you did not RTFA.

  5. By Anonymous Coward (70.33.202.39) on

    Perhaps there is more cross-contribution than many realize. Apple computer has made a lot of improvements to the GCC compiler for PPC performance, which in turn can help the OpenBSD PPC port. Are Sun and IBM engineers doing similar work on tools that are used by OpenBSD? Notice that I started with "Perhaps", as I am not a coder and I have no real first-hand experience. People and companies should support free software projects, but a lot of the support may come in other forms besides cash.

    Comments
    1. By Anonymous Coward (70.179.123.124) on

      That's a false analogy; the Apple improvements to gcc were done by Apple FOR Apple, not to mention that you're talking about improvements to /existing/ code, instead of engineering and distributing a valuable, ubiquitous tool.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

      Apple's contributions to GCC mainly go into Apple's branch, formerly apple-ppc-branch now apple-local-200502-branch. Apple maintain their own versions of GCC, as do OpenBSD. Optimisations in Apple's branch have more to do with their OS than the underlying arch. Most of the changes to GCC for PPC have come from IBM, this is primarily because IBM produce powerpc chips and so it is in their best interests.

      Do SUN and IBM produce tools that are used by OpenBSD ?
      I cannot think of any off-hand.

      Comments
      1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

        Also GCC is not a part of OpenBSD or OSX, in the same way that OpenSSH is a part of OpenBSD.

  6. By Anonymous Coward (69.70.207.240) on

    From the article... Not to forget that CARP can be used for failover with apache and other things too; not just firewalls, as most people tend to think.

    OpenBSD is filled with endless possibilities... it's a wonderful thing!

  7. By Anonymous Coward (208.252.48.163) on

    Can we please stop spreading this FUD?

    Some of the OpenSSH freeloaders, like Apple Computer and The SCO Group, are notorious for reaping financial rewards from selling open source software bundled with their proprietary products.

    Jesus spin doctor Christ. As California corporations and taxpayers, companies like Apple and SCO paid for BSD's development. Apple have every legal, moral, and ethical right to use it.

    Comments
    1. By Anonymous Coward (87.78.94.254) on

      OpenSSH was not inherited from berkeley. So whats your point again?

    2. By David Gwynne (220.245.180.132) loki@animata.net on

      This has nothing to do with the right to use our software. If you read the license we put on our code you'll notice we give most of our rights away. At no time have we asked them to stop using or shipping OpenSSH.

      The issue here is sustainability. The people behind OpenSSH have put a lot of effort into making a good and free product, precisely so anyone and everyone can use it. However, they will be unable to keep up the effort if they don't get some support. There is no legal obligation on the big vendors to support OpenBSD and OpenSSH, but for a relatively trivial contribution they can keep it alive and reap the benefit of continued development of something they rely on.

    3. By takahide (84.217.42.41) takahide at openbsd dot se on

      "Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California."

      OpenSSH development began in 1999 which means neither Apple nor SCO paid for it.

      Comments
      1. By Anonymous Coward (68.43.94.80) on

        If you consider the DARPA funding OBSD received, then yes, US taxpayers did fund some OBSD development during its history.

        Comments
        1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

          DARPA giveth, and DARPA taketh away

          Comments
          1. By Anonymous Coward (84.188.214.210) on

            DARPA betrayed oBSD in some way..
            So you could say &prefered_US_company (e.g. SUn with JAVA-Licenses provided to fBSD..) cheated to the project.
            This will be mostly true in any case....

  8. By Richard (195.212.199.56) on

    It's obvious, but I'll mention it anyway...

    Maybe the OBSD project needs to wake up to the real world a bit. Basically there's lots of mean people and corporations out there and that's not going to change any time soon.

    I know it goes against the 'free' philosophy, but maybe the project should start charging large users (ie - people like Apple, Cisco, and the Linux distributions) for including its software into their products / packages. The software will still be free (the source is still freely available for the individual) but it would stop this leaching.

    I appreciate it may not be easy to come up with a system that works and that can't be easily got round, but surely it's worth looking at.

    Maybe you could even add specific clauses into the license such as "Cisco are not allowed to use this". Nothing to stop you doing that and after a while they might come knocking on your door to negotiate terms.

    These actions would probably not bear fruit immediately (it would be difficult/impossible to make such restrictions work retrospectively), but over time they would have some effect.

    If it comes to the worst, then start charging everyone! Red Hat do and they seem to be doing ok out of it.

    I noticed the comment in the interview about the rise in FTP traffic from OBSD. That's another issue that should be addressed; access to the FTP server could maybe be on a subscription basis; allow access if you've bought the CD for the version you are wanting access for, for example. This would allow 'nice' people to get updates and patches, but would prevent leaching of the codebase.

    Just the other day I saw comments regarding the project's finances. Need I say more?

    Just to re-iterate... I think the project needs to wake up to reality a bit. It's not nice and I know it goes against what we would all like, but if the other team are determined not to play fair then you can't just sit there and take it forever. It's simply not sustainable and a "moral victory" still means you're on the loosing side.

    Comments
    1. By Richard (195.212.199.56) on

      One last thing (yes, I'll shut up after this), it's often quoted that the OBSD developers make OBSD for themselves, and if other people want to use it then all for the good.

      Maybe this philosophy ought to be looked at again and taken a bit closer to heart; why do you care if (say) CARP can't be freely used by Cisco etc? As long as the people that write the stuff (and presumable those that buy the CDs etc too) can get access to it then what's the problem?

      Ok, I'll shut up now.

      Comments
      1. By Anonymous Coward (87.78.164.190) on

        OpenBSD/SSH is free. (read BSD license)
        Distributing the code under the BSD license is the fundamental way things are done by the OpenBSD team. If the'd change the license, there'd be lot's of forks and they'd forsake their goals.

        This whole "money-issue" is an ethical/moral one.

        (*wont start ranting bout capitalism* *wont start* *must resist*)

        Comments
        1. By Anonymous Coward (143.166.226.19) on

          It is NOT about moraility. It is about fulfilling a selfish need to get free software that one resells updated. Nothing to do with moraility, everything to do with pure good old capatilism.

          Comments
          1. By Anonymous Coward (87.78.67.195) on

            Address for the Bugzilla where i can report "greed"? That has to be fixed sometime...

      2. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

        you're new here aren't you ?

        Comments
        1. By Anonymous Coward (62.7.165.30) on

          No I'm not.

          I've been using BSD for a number of years (and paying for it - I buy the CDs etc and I donate cash). And I've been in the software (writing) business for well over 20 years.

          I KNOW about the BSD licence and what it means. I KNOW you can't just slap restrictions on top of code that's derived from other stuff that's not under your control and is licenced under BSD.

          BUT... You CAN change the licence of stuff that is new (CARP / OpenSSL ?)

          Rich.

          Comments
          1. By Anonymous Coward (87.78.132.217) on

            Current code under the "old" license 'd be still out there.
            License change causing a fork.
            Fork not good, fork bad, fork against religion and believes. Me spoon...

            This whole discussion 'bout solutions is senseless.
            There is just one solution. The "accused" vendors to step up and make a statement.

            Third hand will just leed to more traffic on Daniel's bill. This charade is like a voyage to jerusalem with as many chairs as players.

    2. By Nate (65.95.124.5) on

      Actually, you need say no more, I'd actually have preferred you not making your opinion known in the first place, since it has been said before and will not be happening.

    3. By Anonymous Coward (82.153.166.138) on

      > Red Hat do and...

      CentOS came along. OpenBSD's model is great, corporations just need to catch up with how things should be and realise what would be in their long-term interests to support.

      Comments
      1. By Anonymous Coward (62.7.165.30) on

        ...except they aren't are they? And they aren't going to in my lifetime.

        As I said, a moral victory still mens you're on the losing side.

  9. By Nicolai Brown (12.216.45.89) on http://www.public.iastate.edu/~free-unix/OpenBSD

    I'm not intimately involved in the OpenBSD project, so I'm not going to give the developers a long list of unasked-for advice on matters I'm sure they've already discussed.

    Rather, I'd like to say how happy I am with the CD sets whenever I buy them. I started using OpenBSD at 2.6, and thinking back, I've gotten the most enjoyment and usefulness out of OpenBSD when I buy the CD sets. They're nice to have, and it's a great way to support a project that I've used professionaly and personally for years.

    The OpenBSD developers put out great products. (Note the plural!) For me it only makes sense to reward them for their hard work. I'm excited for the 3.9 CDs to arrive!

    http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html

    Comments
    1. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.119) on

      I'm curious. Is OpenBSD officially used in a workstation role at Iowa State? Or do you have a free unix club of some sort? (I followed the URL you filled in as a personal webpage).

      Comments
      1. By Nicolai Brown (12.216.45.89) on http://www.public.iastate.edu/~free-unix/OpenBSD/

        Iowa State University only officially supports Red Hat Linux (yuck). As for your other question, yes!, there is a free unix group on campus. Last I checked there were around 125 people subscribed, including users of all common free software. Regarding OpenBSD on the laptop here at ISU... laptop software is more or less a personal choice, which for most people, means not actually making choices and using whatever they're given. So most of the ISU laptops run Windows XP or Mac OSX. As for me, I will do whatever I want, which means running OpenBSD. Hope this answers your questions.

  10. By SleighBoy (64.146.180.98) on http://www.code.cx/

    Oh lord, this article made it "front page" on digg.com. Let the stereotypes, half-truths and good ol' fashioned ignorance start being shouted left and right in the comments.

  11. By JYL (199.202.164.35) jylandry at jyl dot ca on http://www.jyl.ca

    In my experience, many large corporations and government agency will be please to give little money on a regular basis when the proper conditions are present:

    - Receive some value (CD distribution are fine. T-Shirts are harder to justify for many)
    - When it is easy to subscribe to an annual contract of purchase (like you do for a newspaper, a magazine, most software maintenance, etc...)
    - When it is easy to renew the annual contract. (Automatic renewal comes to mind)

    I work for some major organizations. Purchasing a 50$ CD is all lost in the rounding done to present the "IT budget”. However, in order to purchase 1 CD set, it might cost the IT organization more than 50$ in overhead. All those steps are expensive compare to the cost of the good:
    - Prepare the business justification every time,
    - Have it approve by your boss or someone else,
    - Have it approve as non-standard software every time (by IT, procurement…),
    - Handling the procurement, the reception, dispatch the good, invoice cycle, etc…
    - In some cases, the individual will put it on credit card but need to prepare an expense account, an invoice or something… (What a pain …)

    Put it that way: In many of the larger company, the procurement of “non standard item” is time consuming, involving for the peoples that perform it and rather expensive for the organizations that want to contribute. On the contrary, yearly subscription are justify once and generally will necessitate only a “5 seconds OK” to renew the subscription every years.

    I already mention those facts to Theo but he indicates that no “volunteer” will drive a business model like this one. Ok, Theo, these are your projects and do what you want. However, the business world will not change.

    I did also mention that if the OpenBSD group was to release a CD every month basically offering an easy “patching method” for overwork “system admin”, it might easily get 50$ a month from these company if the “procurement method permit yearly contract renewal”. Well, Theo answer was polite but to the point… (No interest)

    Donation: When donation might seem trivial for larger company, this is often not the case. Most IT organizations within larger company are not authorize to “Donate” and have no budget for that (read: the IT organization can’t do that – Unless you have a new born, you are sick, injure or dead: then, I can send you some flowers). The “Donation departments” often have exacting criteria to donate anything. Trying to fit the OpenBSD development group in those criteria is a stretch of imagination that only the most “Marketing oriented” IT guy will attempt. Consequently, up to a point, the OpenBSD group is barking to the wrong individual, the IT guy.

    Comments
    1. By Anonymous Coward (84.188.214.210) on

      Maybe Henning or another german guy can talk with the BSI to get some money.
      they also supported GNuPG in the very young stages so it would be possible they would support also OpenBSD...

    2. By Anonymous Coward (70.74.75.200) on

      This offer started since october 2004, but not one company responded.

      http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20040930171635&mode=expanded

      Perhaps, you can change this trend with your insight and connections with the major organizations you work for.

      > Consequently, up to a point, the OpenBSD group is barking to the wrong individual, the IT guy.

      Why do you people think OpenBSD is whining or barking for revealing the truth about these corporations who could careless about supporting Free Source? Did you know Sun refused to pay for an OpenSSH developer to attend their SSH session? Did you know IBM's energy customer came to OpenBSD for support? I didn't. It is enlightening to know this pettiness is the norm considering they benefit in the millions, but can't contribute one lousy dollar. These corporations would love it, if all of this was hidden and never made public.

      Please reward people for shedding light into this matter, not flaming them!!

      Comments
      1. By JYL (66.158.132.32) jylandry at jyl dot ca on http://www.jyl.ca

        I look at the offer: http://www.dixongroup.net/?q=openbsd

        This is already something. However, this solve partially a single problem -- Initial installation and supports: 8 hours of consultation that needs to be used in the 60 days period followings the purchase.

        What wrong with this offer: Nothing – but you won’t sales many to large company.

        Why:
        - Justifying OpenBSD in large company is difficult and usually only possible for fringe “application” (Unless you are an ISP).
        - You don’t want to business justify OBSD every quarter, 6 months or years. This can take 3 to 4 hours of your time to purchase a 50$ CD (and more if someone in the approval chain does not know about it use).
        - Even HP, Cisco, IBM, Juniper have understand this problem. Take an example related to some low function firewall purchased from Juniper. The low end Netscreen 5GT come with the optional 1 years software supports at $200 per unit. Next year, the contract renews by itself. (unless I stop it).
        - Last year, Juniper received a few thousands in support for “next to nothing”. I don’t receive CD or book or anything. Just the right to download from their WEB site and do a limited amount of Phone call (over the year). Last year, we did 2 phone calls that lasted 40 minutes total. This year, Juniper will also receive a few thousands dollars (contract just renew).

        Juniper is a fringe suppliers for us and the Netscreen 5GT is only permitted for non-mission critical application and only when the necessary “Backup/supports” mechanism are put in place(very few unit operational). I have more firewall or servers running OBSD than there is Netscreen 5GT installed. Some of the OBSD run in “mission critical” application. Nevertheless, the OBSD group has receive only about 300$ totals from the company – purchase in two shot.

        Down time in the larger company is usually expensive (thousands of dollar per hours is common even in a mid-sized one). Some insurance and supports are cheap if it permit to solve a problem in a timely manner. So, 2 months supports after purchase is interesting but does not satisfy most company , business day supports (8 hours) for a full year is much better. Of course, some company will insist on 12/7/365 and 24/7/365.

        The other thing to consider is how deep is the hierarchy of large company. Between me and the country head of the “operational unit” (Call-it country president), there is 6 levels. This guy is not even a senior VP in the “worldwide” organization. Now, if we were a computer manufacturer, the person that will integrate OSSH in the OS will work for someone at my level. Do you honestly believe that the “president” of IBM will know? Unlikely, IBM has 350,000 employees and the OS architects/coders that took the decision to integrate it in AIX is unlikely to talk to Sam Palmisano in it lifetime.





    3. By Anonymous Coward (65.34.16.170) on

      WHY BUY ONE FOR ALL THE COMPUTERS..

      buy ONE for EACH Computer!!!!

      SUGGEST CORPORATIONS buy one each instance, M$0ft already has
      them trained to do that...


      Comments
      1. By JYL (199.202.164.35) jylandry at jyl dot ca on http://www.jyl.ca

        May be -- Because the offer of this group is for "1 package" only

  12. By rodross (myXtie) (63.19.217.112) on

    Well after thinking this does affect me I did some research and it appears even the university I attended is using "http://www.ssh.fi/company/newsroom/article/732/",. Please, I am an advocate of "free" software and would like nothing more than to see "free" software used, especially in unversities. Theo is right ( www.ssh.fi charges USD $149.00 ) and OpenSSH is worth so much more, but Theo you need the help of other "free" thinkers, remember they are on your side. In this philosophy of good guy versus bad guy, the real one to point the finger at is the big Corp. as you have done and I applaud you. I am one who hates legal but putting the money issue aside what can be worked out with the GPL people to ensure more cooperation ? Could some calm discussion with Richard Stallman further joint efforts ? Please think this over as I write him from time to time and will mention this to him as well. Together you will be stronger. I guess you have heard before it is harder to break a bunch of sticks than it is just one. OpenBSD Always !

    Comments
    1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

      Asking OpenBSD users to get along with Linux users (if BSD users can dump their superiority complex) is a great idea. So great, in fact, that it will never happen. Sad :(

      Comments
      1. By takahide (84.217.34.32) takahide at openbsd dot se on

        This superiority complex you speak about, it exists on both sides (esp. the Gentoo users [note: not everyone] are notorious for it, even among other Linux distribution camps).

        And all the "that's what you get for using the BSD license" posts? Doesn't help.

  13. By James White (68.5.36.150) on

    I am a long time subscriber to OpenBSD (and FreeBSD) via BSD Mall. This way I don't have to think about ordering, which as a procrastinator means I would get around to it about every 3rd release, and OpenBSD would go without the majority of my small contributions. I pay for every release, not because I need it (in fact, the 3.7 and 3.8 CDs are still in their shrink wrap, hey I said I’m a procrastinator), but literally as a “thank you” to the project. Understanding that the project derives much of its revenue form the CDs, I believe this is simply the right thing to do. Ok, so I’m not a leach, I can and have contributed for years, and I do it for the “right” reasons. So with that out of the way…

    Unless I get a tax deduction for donations, you will not get donation from me, and I can not be the only person with this position. Many, if not all, US companies will take the same stance. Do not underestimate the tax incentive of a charitable donation! FreeBSD gets donations from me periodically because we both benefit. They need the money and I need the tax deductions. I would gladly do the same for OpenBSD.


    PS. What the other poster said about using subscriptions to improve your sales to businesses… His comments are absolutely correct and equally true for individuals, especially procrastinators.

    Comments
    1. By Anonymous Coward (69.92.186.247) on

      1) If OBSD was an 501(c)3 org, there would be all kinds of restrictions on what they could do with the money, not to mention that keeping up with all of the paperwork would be almost a full time job. Furthermore, because the foundation would need to be US based to get tax deductions for US corporations, transferring funds to non-US devs and for non-US events would be legally sticky. I don't see anyone stepping up an volunteering to deal with all this b.s. anytime soon.

      2) You can probably write off the "donation" as an operation expense as paying for developers to fix bugs and add features to software seems pretty clear cut. I'm sure a decent accountant or tax attorney could help you out if you really cared.

  14. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

    Suck it up BSD license bitches!

    Comments
    1. By Anonymous Coward (87.78.132.217) on

      Hard to accept what _free_ realy means, isn't it?

      Comments
      1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

        No, it's just hard to hear BSD folks whine about not getting money when they've themselves to blame, and Theo's wonderful sense of how to work people.

        Comments
        1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

          Yeah, if it was GPL then we wouldn't be in this situation
          </sarcasm>

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