OpenBSD Journal

OpenBSD finances

Contributed by marco on from the Developing-isnt-free dept.

I just wanted to remind the community that OpenBSD 3.9 pre-orders are up.

I know you saw a blurb from Bob a few days ago and many of you purchased and/or donated some cash, thank you very much for that! The bad news is that OpenBSD for the past 2 years has turned a loss of approximately $20K USD ($40K total). I don't think I need to explain in many words what that is doing to our beloved OS, and worse, our main systems architect. This is starting to seriously impede the development of OpenBSD and OpenSSH. A lot of serious architecture and development is done at hackathons around the world. The week-long one in Calgary being the big one where everyone tries to get together to discuss and plot a course for the future. To put this in perspective, due to financial restraints the 2007 hackathon is not going to happen unless someone is willing to pick up that tab. The scheduled hackathon of 2006 will happen in about 2 months. Large hackathons like that cost up $30K USD. The smaller hackathons that are concentrated on a single area of development are less expensive and come in at around $10K USD. These figures do not include flights and stay for the poorer and student developers we have. Unfortunately not everyone in OpenBSD is able to afford these trips but we do love to fly them out to pick their brains.

What is happening is that the CD purchase FTP ratio is out of control. People pretty much stopped purchasing CDs in quantities they used to and use the FTP mirrors instead. This lack of sales is what is causing the project to turn a small loss for the 2nd year in a row.

To fulfill most development goals OpenBSD should be generating about $100K USD. With that amount of money the project can finance 1 large and 4 small hackathons per year. Pay the bills and a part-time developer to mind the shop when Theo isn't around. In an ideal world we would have a sponsor per hackathon and the CD sales would be paying for other expenses.

Inquiries about sponsoring hackathons and other fund raising questions can be sent to marco@openbsd.org. Serious/interesting offers will be evaluated by me and discussed with Theo. The idea is to keep him busy with technical stuff and as little as possible with fund-raising activities. Unfortunately sending email to the lists is counter-productive and worse will generate flames. Please restrain yourself and simply contact me off list.

What I want to point out what a lot of people don't seem to realize is that OpenSSH development is paid from the same pool of money as OpenBSD. OpenSSH is in use by millions around the world however the revenue stream just simply isn't there. This is where other projects could help. Without naming entities or projects by name there are others out there that are sitting on some cash. It would be wonderful if these entities could share some of the wealth to keep us going.

All this said, a few words of caution. First and foremost OpenBSD/OpenSSH will not compromise its goals. The reason why the project has been able to maintain integrity is by simply saying "no" to outside preassure. Doing the right thing can and sometimes is painful, but it is what makes the project into what it is today. All donations will therefore have to be without any strings attached.

(Comments are closed)


  1. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.129) on

    It certainly isn't hard to understand why some projects at least think about going commercial/proprietary. Giving away your work for free will always have limited application as a business model =( Is the project in the hole for 40K (is it even possible for this to happen?), or did come out of money left over from more profitable years? The later I hope!

  2. By c2 (208.191.162.126) maxentropic at hotmail dot com on

    Wow...surprising that a) "normal" CD sales can finance the project, and b) they aren't getting "normal" sales. Well, maybe b) is actually disturbing. The mere peace of mind that using OpenBSD brings me is easily worth the price of 2 CDs a year.

  3. By Anonymous Coward (195.92.253.2) on

    Here is .2 cents. Not quite the cost of a cd. "ust before the demise of Commodore, a marketing executive for the company summarized what he thought led to the Amiga's failure to capture significant market share. He minced no words: "The fanatical element among our customer base hasn't done us any favors." http://www.byte.com/art/9602/sec11/art8.htm#

    1. By Anonymous Coward (68.104.17.51) on

      here's your 2 cents back, whiner.

    2. By X (81.56.211.110) on

      Perhaps it is due to unemployment in computers ? it is two years that i don't have a good job, and i always buy the cD since 2.7 but it is more and more to give 50 Ä for cds.

      1. By X (81.56.211.110) on

        more and more hard i wanted to say, sorry

    3. By Anonymous Coward (84.9.60.116) on

      Doesn't it seem strange that a Commodore exec would blame the customers who bought the products ? As I recall the Commodore executives ran the company into the ground, the "fanatics" kept buying regardless...

      1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

        Strange that the Amiga is still going despite the fact that Commodore is no longer around.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.129) on

          Not really ... the name 'Amiga' is around, after being juggled like a hot potato. But nothing but vapour really ever came from the companies that owned it.

          Outside of of ownership of Amiga name, AROS (http://www.aros.org/) is by far the most interesting thing to come out of Commodore's death. They have been struggling for years to produce a platform independent AmigaOS 'clone' open-source operating system ... and the project just won't die. All of these years, reality not withstanding, and they are still at it! They can only dream of having financial resources comparable to the OpenBSD project, but regardless they keep crawling forward. You have to admire that!! Good inspiration for any open source project.

          1. By herauthon (84.28.182.11) herauthon@home.nl on

            Economoose
            Well, every one with a bit sense of economics knows that if you offer the perfect stuff for free - nobody with a decent mind will buy it. And if this is strange news - who invented capitalism?
            I thought that home users are limited to a home-edition and corporate environment was limited but not to the more extended corporate version - i mean, we are learned and teached to get and grab and snag, reap.. fetch wherever it is for free or bit less free.
            how can one change this behaviour?
            Humans are very economical by design - but waste not less.

            Oh, where can i obtain the CD'S and howmuch will it effectively cost - i live in the Netherlands will it cost me product-price or is there some extra like VAT (BTW) and inport, storage, logistics etc - do i need a creditcard for online purchase?

        2. By Anonymous Coward (69.28.228.76) on

          If by "going" you mean "marginalized hobby platform", then yes.

    4. By Anonymous Coward (192.223.243.5) on

      * It hasn't really hurt Apple in the past few years.
      * A *marketing* executive for Commodore Amiga blaming the platform's demise on its *users* is quite hilarious.

  4. By llewdis (71.39.22.175) on

    I have occaisionally used OpenBSD as a resource when building out client networks and have never had a complaint about a single installed box. Be that as it may, I also am not terribly flush with cash as I once was. I am buying the 3.9 release just as I did the 3.8 and 3.7 releases. I realize that this is a paltry sum compared to the hours of dedication displayed by TdR and others, and I hope others will step up to the plate for this. My work as a Security Engineer and CCDA would not be nearly as fruitful without OpenSSH or OpenBSD!

  5. By Peter N. M. Hansteen (194.54.107.19) peter@bgnett.no on http://www.bgnett.no/~peter/pf/

    You just reminded me to add a "Buy OpenBSD CDs and swag, donate!" slide to my presentation for tomorrow (UKUUG Spring). Thanks for that, it's long overdue anyway.

    And when I get back, it's on to nag customers, friends and colleagues.

    In the nicest possible way, stressing the value of donations, of course.

    1. By Anonymous Coward (83.78.52.126) on

      Dead right.

      And if all of the people giving tips on how to rais money
      would also donate USD 50 while their at it, then that would
      help even more than just talking.

  6. By kokamomi (85.227.7.132) on

    how about an "anti-ad" in the margin of undeadly rotating the top companies that evidently use openbsd/openssh but do nothing to help, linked to information about the situation and how to get unlisted... could be expanded to aggravating hardware vendors as well =)

    +---------------------+
    | Thanks for nothing: | 
    |                     | 
    |      Acme, Inc      | 
    |                     | 
    |  Click this banner  | 
    |   to learn more...  | 
    +---------------------+
    

    1. By Anonymous Coward (67.86.58.77) on

      That is a good idea, It is sad that almost everyone who uses an open source operating system uses OpenSSH and the majority of people fail to help support it, maybe they will get a clue when it isn't around anymore. (I hope it doesn't come to that point.)

    2. By FŠbio Olivť Leite (15.227.249.72) on

      Hear hear, we witness the birth of "extorsion-ware"! ;-)

    3. By Anonymous Coward (24.34.57.27) on

      Speaking of compromising principles...

    4. By Anonymous Coward (198.147.128.129) on

      Right, embarassing your potential donors into donating, that will work really well. Once again we see why OpenBSD is floundering. Time to change that mascot, boys.

      1. By Anonymous Coward (68.104.17.51) on

        you are aware that wasn't an official suggestion?

  7. By teemu (193.110.28.9) on http://teemu.lynix.net

    every admin/engineer using openbsd in a paid infrastructure should consider ordering CD-Sets for the clients he installs the boxes. this also eliminates the question "what is this OpenBSD thing?";
    strange, but having offical CD-Sets makes them happy, they like putting them right beside their w2k3 server cd set and those office XP CD's.
    It's a bargain, because the work behind is priceless ..

    1. By Luis (68.8.227.65) on elpinguim.com

      Excellent point, I will do the same for each client install (heck they can afford it).

    2. By Anonymous Coward (66.54.196.35) on

      Good point- which brings to mind something related. I've been buying CDs (and donating cash) regularly since 2.7 for myself as well as for clients and employers. Getting the client to pay for them is easy- just include the CD cost in the bill. Getting an employer to pay for them, however, is like pulling teeth. Trying to get a check cut to Theo from a government agency or financial services company is near impossible- they just won't set up (1)an individual (2)in another country (3)charging only $45 for software (with no "support contract") in their accounting system. I wish it were different but it isn't (at least in my experience).

      I'd hazard that there are many OBSD installs in IT shops all over the world that haven't been paid for at all or with company funds. If so then this is a large potential revenue source for the project. What would it take for this revenue to be realized? A business entity surrounding the project so companies would feel more comfortable issuing a purchase order? Outing the freeloading companies? Charging 10 times more for OBSD "Corporate Edition" so Accounting would think it's worth it? I'm looking at the comments posted and generally agreeing but think it would be good to consider how to entice companies into paying for this software.

      1. By Chris Black (66.170.4.46) on

        I agree, trying to explain to a finance department why they should send a check to an individual in Canada is a hurdle. I think it would go much easier if the check could be made out to OpenBSD LLC or something similar.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

          Maybe some trusted entity can step in as a proxy ?

          1. By Anonymous Coward (216.175.250.42) on

            Paypal :)

            I kid, I kid!

            1. By Anonymous Coward (128.151.253.249) on

              (Insert Nigerian bank fraud here.)

        2. By marco (149.169.52.105) on

          this idea always comes up around release time go search the archives. this topic has been beaten to death. i wish it would stay dead

          1. By Anonymous Coward (71.145.206.70) on

            This isn't marco@. Just for the record.

            1. By marco, but not marco@ (149.169.52.105) on

              heh

              ff didn't have my usual tag and i was too lazy to type it. fixed for now on =)

    3. By Brandon Hines (70.112.189.156) brandon@2i.com on

      OpenBSD needs to make it easier for companies to purchase materials.

      It can be difficult to purchase a CD for many organizations. The price is too low. YES, TOO LOW. Purchasing departments may put up barriers for such small orders and many people do not want to deal with the hastle of reimbursments. And forget about donations. Donations have to go through the chairity wing of the organization. Unless OpenBSD is a little league team this is not an option.

      OpenBSD should offer multi-pack subscriptions where an IT department can make an annual purchase for quarterly updated media. Other options might include bundled purchase options for sites that need multiple copies of the CDs or multi-year orders where a project can fund three or five years of updates.

      Think about the math. Price a five year five set supscription with quarterly updates at $4500. Single set subscriptions can be sold for $900. Do not discount, throw in extras! Believe it or not it is much easier to add $5000 to a project where OpenBSD will be employed than a $45 line item.

      Have a sales organization front-end the sales process so that companies can issue purchase orders. I volunteer to do this for 15%. I'll even set up an account to disburse the money to the OpenBSD organization quarterly to keep the accounting simple. <grin>

      Just a thought.

      1. By Anonymous Coward (66.11.66.41) on

        Here's a thought, read the archives. Someone already did make a big expensive comes with support "enterprise" openbsd. And nobody bought it. People keep saying this crap, but when its time to actually do something, they prove that they are all talk.

      2. By Anonymous Coward (207.210.17.98) on

        I would have to agree that I along with all of my clients that I have OpenBSD installed at would have no problem with some kind of "subscription" to OpenBSD. As it is now I am so busy that I don't even have time to order the cd's and end up just making a donation to make up for not buying them.

  8. By Anonymous Coward (193.22.160.2) on

    Sadly, it must have come to this. OpenBSD, as much as any other OS competes with its features and tries to be unique. But this uniqueness is expensive, as explained. And, most users don't care. OpenBSD is extraordinary in some of it's parts, but I doubt that there is a single task which can only be done using OpenBSD. In that sense, it is as good as any other free OS around. To strengthen it further: OpenBSD/OpenSSH/OpenBGPD/OpenCVS gives away the best parts - for free. Having a public ftp mirror and cvs repos makes it even harder to convince people to buy CD's. And lacking support for commodity hardware doesn't make it more interesting. Doing the right thing can lead to crash.

    1. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.129) on

      I see this 'lacking support for commodity hardware' statement appearing and reappearing, especially on Slashdot. Personally, I haven't stumbled across much in the way of 'commodity hardware' that isn't supported. Exactly what 'unsupported' hardware are you suggesting can turn the tide of donations?

      1. By Anonymous Coward (68.104.17.51) on

        probably referring to anything that needs a blob of binary gunk to work or is otherwise hampered by lack of documentation (nvidia graphics cards, win/lin modems, adaptec raid, various wireless cards, etc)

        or maybe its because openbsd doesn't support a ndiswrapper/project evil/ load windows drivers into the kernel scheme.

    2. By scott harper (38.192.2.130) scottwharper@gmail.com on

      I have been dragging old PCs out of the trash now for a good few months here in chicago, where old PCs are as easy to come by as disgruntled Cubs fans as of late, and haven't had an issue yet with unsupported hardware. mind you, i see no reason/advantage to installing X, but exactly what commodity hardware are you making reference to?

      1. By Anonymous Coward (12.222.146.208) on

        I am not the OP, but one example recently for me is the Fusion MPT SATA RAID card from HP/LSI Logic. I had to run linux on three machines on which I would rather have installed OpenBSD. Furthermore, that client did not buy the CDs, as I would have had them do. Just an example, I am sure there is other hardware, I love OpenBSD, don't get me wrong, but don't act like it supports all hardware that doesn't require binary gunk.

    3. By Anonymous Coward (69.28.228.76) on

      Unless you are specifically talking about X, your complaint that OBSD does not support commodity hardware is absolute rubbish. X is tweaky for any platform.

      I've given away more "end-tables that boot" with OBSD pre-loaded on them than you have years out of diapers.

  9. By Simon (84.57.88.52) on

    Welcome to the joyful world of capitalism
    Sad, really...

    1. By Anonymous Coward (130.101.168.173) on

      Actually, I don't think that there's very much wrong with capitalism . . . a lot of the troubles that come from it seem to be caused more by applying it to situations where it naturally doesn't work--attempting to use market systems to control public goods like software and creative works, for instance.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (70.124.65.113) on

      What exactly is your point? That everyone should be forced to donate their money to the organizations you think are worthwhile?

      It's got nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with lazy people not putting up the money to support something they use on a daily basis, when they spend more than the cost of a CD on a weekend's entertainment.

  10. By squeege (69.28.228.218) on

    Maybe it has something to do with the declining US dollar? Although the project is based in Canada they charge CDs & swag in USD, and since 2003 the US dollar has been steadily losing value versus the Canadian dollar (and Euro). The forecast is that this trend will continue for while.

    I wouldn't be surprised if this is a contributing factor to the project's deficit...

    If this is the case, I'm wondering why sales haven't increased slightly to compensate for the drop in the US currency; as a Canadian, I've taken advantage of this situation to buy extra swag with the CDs - more cool OpenBSD stuff for the same amount of money. For US OpenBSD supporters it changes nothing; but for most others around the world it should make the merchandise more affordable... ???

    Well, I'm off to make a donation...

    1. By Noryungi (82.127.29.248) n o r y u n g i @ y a h o o . c o m on

      Most people in Europe order through kd85.com and pay their OpenBSD shtuff in Euro, not in dollars. And I think the declining value of the US dollar has nothing to do with it: it's just that people don't order CDs

      This being said, if the OpenBSD project is this far into the red, maybe dropping the Hackaton for a couple of years would be a good idea. Let's face it: it's probably better for everyone to keep OpenBSD alive, rather than keep the hackatons and see OpenBSD sink always deeper into the red.

      Of course, I am just a poor unemployed schmuck, but I'll pre-order 3.9 tonight, as well as a T-Shirt. I'll even try to squeeze a little donation. That's how much I value OpenBSD.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (82.181.114.241) on

      Well, whether US$ exchange rate affects it or not, and whether all European CD sets come from kd85.com or not, the price here is quite high.

      The 3.7 CD cost me 55 euros (around US$75) which I consider quite a lot, and even more so considering empty CD costs around 0.1 euros. Either somebody has quite high margins, or there really are very few buying the CDs: 100k US$ / 75 US$ = 1333 CDs.

      Anyway, at this price I buy them very seldom (mostly for support). For half or one third the price it could be possible to buy them more often (for some real use maybe) and ultimately have more CDs and more stable/greater money flow to OpenBSD.

      1. By Noryungi (82.123.235.114) n o r y u n g i @ y a h o o . c o m on

        First of all, I don't think US$ 75 is a very high price to pay for an entire Operating System, which is as secure as OpenBSD. For instance, Windows XP "Family" Edition (full install version) is sold at around Euros 250 where I live (and we all know how secure that is). Mac OS X 10.4.3 "Tiger" is also close to Euros 200 -- but you have to spend serious money on Apple machines if you really want to have fun with it.

        That makes OpenBSD about 70% cheaper than Windows XP and about 60% cheaper than Mac OS X... Think about that for a second...

        Am I comparing Apple and Oranges, closed-source vs open-source? Fair enough, but let's take a look at the Linux crowd then: SuSE Linux is advertised at around Euros 65, Mandriva is between Euros 45 and Euros 80, Red Hat (Enterprise) starts at around Euros 200. Sure, you probably get tech support for Red Hat and the more expensive Mandriva, but that means OpenBSD is roughly in the 'industry' average for CD-only operating systems.

        Second, don't forget that, with every official OpenBSD CD set, you get the whole OS for 6 architectures (i386, AMD64, macppc, sparc, sparc64 and vax), including a large number of pre-compiled packages. Again, compare and contrast with Windows XP, or the latest version of Mac OS X, which run only on one architecture each (yes, I know, Mac OS X on Intel i386 arch is here, but still).

        Also, each OpenBSD CD set comes with a short printed installation documentation, sticker, colorful CD case. All of these things cost money. The CDs are professionally created, and not cheaply burned in a CD-RW drive somewhere in Calgary. Finally, they have to be shipped worldwide from the place they are made (Canada) -- all of these things cost money.

        And don't forget that whatever profits are made by the sales of CDs has to pay for some serious connectivity and bandwidth, electricity, spare parts to replace failed hardware, etc., not just for Theo, but -- I suppose -- for a bunch of other developers. Add to that the Hackatons, the travel expenses to various industry conferences (hey, you need to keep up to snuff, you know), throw in a pizza and a beer from time to time, etc, etc, and, yes, I can definitely believe OpenBSD is in the red.

        So, could the CD set be made cheaper? Probably. Could OpenBSD find other revenue stream? Sure. But, as it stands right now, the price of the OpenBSD CD set seems to me to be perfectly reasonable.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (205.240.34.148) on

          How about, instead of just making one whizzbang all-in-one set that cost s what some consider steep, make stripped down, single arch distro disc and sell them.

          Many people are only using i386, and now maybe amd64. It may be nice to have 4 disks that will boot on about anything, but it adds to the production costs and mostly goes unused. By shipping a i386 and/or amd64 version seperate, without stickers and any other perks (such as the ports collection), and charging about $20 USD, they may see increased sales overall. This, combined with lower cost, may improve the situation.

          Loyalists will always still buy the big set, and get perks with it too.

      2. By Wim (194.78.167.231) wim@kd85.com on http://kd85.com/notforsale.html

        I would be interested to see your order number as usually a CD shipped to Finland is EUR 45 + EUR 5 shipping, so EUR 50 (and that INCLUDES 21% VAT)

        Wim.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (82.181.114.241) on

          Umm, order number .. sorry if I gave a wrong impression. I bought the CD from a local computer store shelf. First thought about ordering it online, but it was just faster to go get it from the store. The extra 5 euros is probably just their 10% margin on it, then. What I really meant was about the $30 to $50 price mentioned in the other comments, compared to this 50..55 euros. Anyway, I still think that's "a lot" compared to free ftp (Linux and OpenBSD etc), mostly for the support (don't have to burn the CDs myself and so on). Still, I'll buy it also in the future, keep up the good work, guys!

  11. By Kevin (64.119.117.159) on

    Like with any org depending on "donations" they need to have an annual $$$ drive. $100K/year is not that much if every March for example is official OpenBSD sponsorship drive month. Anyone who believes in the project needs to post on every blog and list imaginable, a call for donations/purchases from the OpenBSD store. Kuro5hin made such an appeal and raised over $20Gs in donations in a week or two and K5 is not OpenBSD! I also make it a point of having each client buy a CD for their installs. With the cost of the CD and the quality of the software, they can't find a better deal.

    1. By drenalin (66.92.179.133) on


      I concur about an annual fund drive. I am in the great situation of having convinced my company to allow me to donate $100/month to open source projects...but I often get busy and haven't kept it up.

      I'm a past (and present - just sent in one today) donor to OpenBSD/OpenSSH, and would welcome a 'reminder' email once per year soliciting donations for the upcoming annual expenses.


      thx
      scott

  12. By Anonymous Coward (24.9.1.84) on

    Pardon the ignorance, but where is the "Blurb from Bob"? I looked through misc@ where I would expect it, but didn't see it.

    I'll get my order in today.

    1. By Anonymous Coward (67.64.89.177) on

      http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20060308040835

  13. By Berant (38.115.140.1) berant <at> lemmenes <dot> com on

    While I've purchaced CD releases in the past, lately I've started just sending in a cash donation each release (of at least the cost of the CD's) and use the FTP mirrors for the actual installs.

    My thinking being that I don't need the pressed CD's and giving cash directly to them saves the cost of the CD's so that they get 100% of my donation.

    Is this helping or hurting the project?

    -Berant

    1. By Anonymous Coward (67.64.89.177) on

      Helping of course :-)

    2. By Anonymous Coward (216.220.225.229) on

      Although I doubt that the CD's are pressed and printed one at a time. Most people have to buy them in runs of 500 or 1000, so it might be a good thing to buy the CD. I'd hate to see the CD's sitting in boxes after the project paid to have them made.

  14. By Chas (147.154.235.53) on

    First off, I'll send in my $100 check today.

    However, OpenSSH is ubiquitous and underappreciated. Why not threaten the vendors? IBM and HP, fork over $5k or AIX/HP-UX support will be removed from the portable releases.

    Or how about a carrot and stick approach? The ftp daemon is starting to get snazzy - how about contractually taking over that support from a few large system vendors?

    I suppose that reopening conversations with DARPA is out of the question.

    And once again, I hate the upgrade cycle. I'm still on 3.5, and I haven't seen a compelling reason to move, even though I bought 3.8. OpenBSD should be structured to make money off that preference.

    1. By Michael (67.38.159.110) on

      Hmmm, That sounds like 'compromising principles' to me.
      The goal of the project is to make excellent software. Arbitrarily removing support for a platform that is still widely (kind of) in use makes it less useful and punishes the users more than it punishes IBM/HP.

      I agree, though - something needs to happen. A pressure campaign maybe? Let them know that the project is in danger and maybe they'll put up some moneys.

      --Michael

      1. By Anonymous Coward (84.188.223.154) on

        Maybe Theo and others could point out some BIG names which do NOT help or give anything in the next interviews or talks...

        I mean this helps to ruin the company image and they (speackers) would just tell the truth.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.129) on

          Ok. This is probably idiotic (but idiocy has never stopped me from posting, and never will!). Perhaps crediting major supporters in the default login message would make supporting the OpenSSH more appealing to vendors. One line at login saying something like "OpenSSH is supported by Microsoft, Apple, Sun, Novell, Redhat, the Tooth Fairy, and Chuck O'Dill" This could be combine with a direct appeal to major (profitable) vendors that use OpenSSH, formally asking them for support (preferable yearly support). It seems like a better prospect than name and shame.

          1. By Sean (139.142.208.98) on

            I came up with this idea too but abstract a bit further and this is still a compromise with respect to the project's princepals. When you consider that the train wreck that is the 5.4 release of FreeBSD was directly due to the pressure of sponsors wanting to see tangible return on their investment that is no longer a sponsorship but a PURCHASE of interest. Donations with strings or implied rewardsx are not donations at all. Hell the 'thank you' page for donations is not an incentive for donation it is a means for the project to publically thank those who have supported it. You are not obligated to be on it and donating with expectations of being publically thanked is not in any way a donation but a purchase of favor.

            Sure this is all ideological bull shit but OpenBSD (as an entity) will not compromise their princepals for a few dollars. It will complain loudly when abused but at the same time understands that abuse will occur regardless. Integrity is infinately easier to lose than it is to gain.

          2. By Anonymous Coward (70.66.3.210) on

            This might be the best idea on this forum so far. I can understand that some people will just hate it, but if thats what it takes to keep OpenBSD.

            1. By Anonymous Coward (84.188.244.167) on

              Make it vice versa!

              ONE FIle wich is NOT allowed to change..

              And this file includes the message.. BUT it displays: Companies like XYZ use OpenSSH and don`t support the work!

              Somethign like this.. so that even the dumbest Guy using a CISCO-Device notice it.


          3. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

            I don't expect big corporate entities that use OpenSSH or parts of OpenBSD to chip-in with financial support, but I am rather surprised that many of the open source projects that also use OpenSSH, PF etc. to chip-in cash.

            Sure there was some bad blood between Open and Net BSDs, but it doesn't stop them using PF or SSH. What about FreeBSD or even some of the *inux distros ?

            1. By Anonymous Coward (66.11.66.41) on

              Maybe they are busy trying to keep their own OS alive? Why should they keep OpenBSD going too? That's your job.

          4. By Stephen Paskaluk (129.128.138.212) stephen@paskaluk.com on

            Ok. This is probably idiotic (but idiocy has never stopped me from posting, and never will!). Perhaps crediting major supporters in the default login message would make supporting the OpenSSH more appealing to vendors. One line at login saying something like "OpenSSH is supported by Microsoft, Apple, Sun, Novell, Redhat, the Tooth Fairy, and Chuck O'Dill" This could be combine with a direct appeal to major (profitable) vendors that use OpenSSH, formally asking them for support (preferable yearly support). It seems like a better prospect than name and shame.

            Besides the obvious concerns already noted, any of these targetted supporters could easily put their own banner in their own distributed OpenSSH if they wanted, why would they pay to be mentioned with a list of other companies (besides support being "The Right Thing", since that obviously isn't working)?

        2. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

          How about this

    2. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

      When SCO started law suits against IBM et al. for use of Linux, GCC had a README.sco file as part of their release saying they would not drop support as it would hurt users and not SCO, but that they did not condone SCO's actions.

      1. By Chas (147.154.235.52) on

        GNU support for SCO is one thing - the FSF didn't have the wolf at the door. Even if Linux had gone down, Debian/NetBSD and/or Debian/GNU would have stepped in and sufficed for the FSF's interests. Stahlman doesn't even like Linux anyway.

        However, if support for all these exotic architectures imperils OpenBSD's survival, then by all means it's time to do what it takes to survive, which means anti-OSX/AIX/HPUX/Tru64/RedHat/VMS code retroactive for all releases in the tree until the scumbags pay up.

        Any OpenSSH platform owned by a company with a market capitalization of $1 billion or over should be targetted (but maybe SCO should be included for spite).

        This will certainly make every major IT news outlet in the industry, drawing attention to OpenBSD's finances. Who knows, a somewhat violent reminder of the origin of these key infrastructure components could grow the OpenBSD userbase.

        Hey, I'm starting to sound like Theo!

        1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

          I guess because it hurts users, as companies are more likely to switch to some less secure SSH implementation.

        2. By Anonymous Coward (70.74.75.200) on

          > However, if support for all these exotic architectures imperils OpenBSD's survival, then by all means it's time to do what it takes to survive, which means anti-OSX/AIX/HPUX/Tru64/RedHat/VMS code retroactive for all releases in the tree until the scumbags pay up.

          > Any OpenSSH platform owned by a company with a market capitalization of $1 billion or over should be targetted (but maybe SCO should be included for spite).

          The main focus of OpenBSD's goal is security. Theo has repeated over and over that his security depends on everyone else's security.

          Another main focus as important as security is transparency and openness. OpenBSD will always remain free/Free/FREE (take your pick,) so there's nothing to stop these companies from porting their own versions.

          These companies haven't donated anything, so what else is new? Let's solve the problem and less suggesting ways to solve the problem. It's always pointless suggestions and lack of results at every release time.

          Your bitterness towards these companies isn't helpful, so why bother thinking about them? They aren't worth it.

          1. By Chas (147.154.235.51) on

            The main focus of OpenBSD's goal is security. Theo has repeated over and over that his security depends on everyone else's security.

            These are all noble aspirations and high ideals, great stuff for those "in a perfect world" conversations.

            This is not a perfect world. The wolf is at the door, and drastic times call for drastic measures.

            Theo has made several digs in the past regarding the corporate SSH freeloaders. I merely echo his sentiments. I don't really hate these corporations, mindless profit-seeking automatons that they sometimes become.

            For Theo to decide to use the SSH source tree as a revenue-generating tool is something that I would completely support.

            Suggestion: how about if, instead of removing large vendor support, a login banner is printed, something like "This is AIX. Your OS vendor (IBM) has not contributed to OpenSSH support. Please encourage them to do so." Sharp, to the point, and if IBM does anything other than write a big fat check, they will make the news.

            Heck, even print the dollar amount. Maybe they can all compete with one another in being good corporate citizens.

            1. By Anonymous Coward (70.74.75.200) on

              >> The main focus of OpenBSD's goal is security. Theo has repeated over and over that his security depends on everyone else's security.

              > These are all noble aspirations and high ideals, great stuff for those "in a perfect world" conversations.
              > This is not a perfect world.

              OpenSSH and OpenBSD were spawned from these high ideals, and OpenSSH's success is proof these noble aspirations are achievable in an imperfect world. Nobody says security must be absolute. All I am saying is your suggestion to pull support goes against OpenBSD's goals. Moreover, I am saying OpenBSD doesn't need another suggestion, OpenBSD needs results: Cash for developers and hackathons etc.

              Your new suggestion doesn't really work, since the vendor will just delete the banner from source. Everyone knows these companies don't contribute to OpenSSH financially, and further shaming them won't result in anything useful. In a perfect world, these companies are responsible and care about people, not quarterly earnings...

              If Theo and OpenBSD developers wanted to cash in and sell out, they would have done it easily. However, they value OpenBSD more; thus, OpenBSD is the achievement of noble aspirations and high ideals, and we are lucky to expect nothing less. In an imperfect world, we need OpenBSD.

              1. By Chas (12.217.82.49) on

                If Theo and OpenBSD developers wanted to cash in and sell out, they would have done it easily. However, they value OpenBSD more; thus, OpenBSD is the achievement of noble aspirations and high ideals, and we are lucky to expect nothing less. In an imperfect world, we need OpenBSD.

                I hate to say it, but if this idealistic, uncompromising position is shared by the leadership, then I hope that you enjoy the ride down. I'm still happy that I sent the check in the hope of prolonging the inevitable.

                "No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." -- Winston Churchill

                1. By Anonymous Coward (70.74.75.200) on

                  > I hate to say it, but if this idealistic, uncompromising position is shared by the leadership, then I hope that you enjoy the ride
                  down. I'm still happy that I sent the check in the hope of prolonging the inevitable.
                  > "No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." -- Winston Churchill

                  I am not an OpenBSD developer, and I don't represent them in any way. I've been around long enough to know they won't compromise their project goals for anything. If you've forgotten, reread the announcement or just the last paragraph.

                  The inevitable is probably OpenBSD slowing OpenSSH's development or go into maintenance mode like Apache. If you think OpenBSD will cease to exist, you need to think instead of corporate's "take, take, take" culture won't be constant. Theo didn't elaborate much on other options.

                  http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-misc&m=114317041717635&w=2

                  If "no folly..." then tolerating idealism at all cost is prevailing wisdom? This is what I've been saying and what the OpenBSD team has been doing all along.

  15. By Anonymous Coward (60.48.189.181) on

    I'm on my way doing a proposal for using OpenBSD as router/firewall. If this success (getting the managers to agree...) then I'll surely get some CDs and some goodies from OpenBSD.org and maybe donate some money (my own).

    Thank you.

    1. By Anonymous Coward (60.48.189.181) on

      Forgot to add some...I hope that those whom are using OpenBSD in their project (in this case I can see quite a number in obsd mailing list), please donate some $$$ or hardware to OpenBSD.org.

  16. By syntax error (81.204.188.152) on

    Well, i am planning a VPN solution based on BSD systems and will buy a CD for every location instead of 1 ...all little bits help :-)

    1. By Anis (213.41.94.195) on

      I am a new user of OpenBSD. I started using it three months ago. What i like most is the quality of the softs and the doc attached. I bought for 125 Ä of stuffs (A CD, two tshirts and the PF book). I hope this will help. I would have certainly given more if i had more money but i'm still a student :/

    2. By Chas (147.154.235.52) on

      Unless your clients are footing the bill and want the media, of course. Shipping all that stuff is probably a real pain.

  17. By Clay Dowling (12.37.120.99) clay@lazarusid.com on http://www.ceamus.com

    It's good to generate income from CD sales. With the freely available installs though, and widespread broadband availability in the US, we can expect sales to continue to decline.

    This seems stupid, but how about putting Google Ads on the OpenBSD site? The OpenBSD site is a great source of reference material even for non-OpenBSD users. Let that value as a reference pay off for the project. I don't know what traffic volumes are or what kind of revenue could be generated, but it seems like it would be worth investigating.

    If there's some opposition to using Google Ads, how about soliciting advertising directly from companies that are using OpenBSD in their products? They have a vested interest in seeing OpenBSD development continue, they benefit from prominent exposure, and the user community benefits by learning about more products using OpenBSD.

  18. By Anonymous Coward (67.134.199.42) on

    Just shutdown the ftp, and put a read-only password on the cvs, and place this password on the CD. It sucks, so does bills. Come on people can afford a $30 cd twice a year.

    1. By Tet (194.106.50.226) on

      Just shutdown the ftp, and put a read-only password on the cvs, and place this password on the CD. It sucks, so does bills. Come on people can afford a $30 cd twice a year.

      If I hadn't tried out OpenBSD by downloading it from the net, I'd never have become hooked and started buying the CDs. My gut instinct is that closing down FTP access would be counterproductive in the long run. Besides, the license allows anyone that buys the CD to put it up on a site for others to download. You can guarantee that someone would do so...

      1. By Matthias Kilian (84.134.54.102) on

        Besides, the license allows anyone that buys the CD to put it up on a site for others to download.

        No. You may put some of the contents on a site, but not the CD (images) as you buyed them. The CDs are (c) by Theo.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (63.237.125.191) on

      Try $50. Shows how long it's been since you've bought a CD. (Or looked at your bank account?) I slowed down to buying CDs every other release since the price was bumped up from $30. I think I'll just donate some cash this time.

    3. By Anonymous Coward (128.151.253.249) on

      That's stupid. That would certainly be compromising priciples. How is it supposed to be "Open" like that? How is the casual programmer who stumbles upon a bug supposed to submit patches if he can't get the source?

    4. By Anonymous Coward (84.188.244.167) on

      Torrents could reduce the load...
      In case the project has to pay the traffic!

    5. By KBAKEP (159.93.100.28) on

      If you reduce the freedom, the project will die like XFree86.

  19. By kamper (70.31.84.121) on

    Advertisements? Put 'em up on all the associated websites and we'll all spend 5 minutes a day repeatedly clicking on them :p

    Ok, that might not mesh so well with the 'principles' thing and you wouldn't want some sort of "Get the Fact" ad showing up.

    Like someone sort of touched on above, what about starting a support business? Like, if I was an openbsd expert and saw a market opportunity, I could start up a business helping other companies either incorporate it into their products or just installing and maintaining specific setups. That would be for profit but if you tied it into the main project, then all revenue would go towards further development of course.

    And obviously no one could do it better than you guys, since you create the product. Would all the developers be willing to put in a little extra time to do money-making support?

    And just so I don't seem completely callous, I'll point out that I bought cds for my first time for 3.9 (just started using at 3.7) so you do have some new cd revenue :)

    1. By Anonymous Coward (162.58.82.244) on

      There were (are?) support bundles offered by Jason Dixon. I think he mentioned no one purchased a single bundle.

      http://www.undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20040930171635
      http://www.dixongroup.net/?q=openbsd

      1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

        No-one has purchased so far ... but with all these people on this page saying they are going to send proposals to their boss, if Jason is offering a support contract and a company to send cheques to ( rather than just to Theo in Canada ) then maybe that might be a good option.

        But if people start saying "but no-one uses it", no-one will.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (70.66.3.210) on

      The sponsership I think is the best idea. What would a company pay to have OpenBSD sponsered by some computer store? or OpenSSH sponsored by IBM? Version information would also show the sponsored by information. Like OpenSSH v* sponsered by IBM.

      Just my 2 cents

    3. By bach (80.166.31.34) lbach@control.aau.dk on

      ...and you wouldn't want some sort of "Get the Fact" ad showing up.
      
      
      I personally wouldn't mind Microsoft paying for OpenBSD development.
      
      

      1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

        well they use OpenBSD code

  20. By KBAKEP (159.93.100.69) on

    I would like to propose two ways:

    1. One platform - one CD. I strongly propose to split distribution into independent discs. As for me, I help when I can. But I can't pay $40-50 for one usefull and two useless discs. I think that this is not a secret, that almost all use x86 architecture. So, it would be better to sell one dics with stickers and install info for $10-15. And use 700MB CD instead of 650MB to give people more. And moreover, I would propose to sell even DVD for $20-25 with full collection of software for the current distribution (anything you can fit in it).

    2. Widely use local representatives. Delivery costs for long distances are very expensive even for one CD (or 3 CD set). You can send a lot of CD sets at once with discount, and people could pay less in the case of short range delivery.

    I beleive it should help.

    1. By Anonymous Coward (64.145.133.82) on

      Enh. On the one hand, I want to call this whining; on the other hand, making the i386 distribution more affordable *will* improve adoption somewhat and stop newbs going to CheapBytes or friends, getting revenue into the project and creating more potential donors. How about $10 or $20 to download the .ISO, which is all the kids (who don't know enough to FTP install) want these days? Perhaps this could be sold as a .torrent, and the tracker for it could implement some minor authentication somehow. .torrents are small and every client supports resuming properly, so there'd be less support cost on the "Wah, I paid and my download was incomplete!" front. In terms of alternate revenue models... Would it be ridiculous to open a certificate authority as a side venture? I'm sure Mozilla could be convinced to trust it, and selling listings could finance a lot with relatively little effort.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (64.145.133.82) on

      Enh. On the one hand, I want to call this whining; on the other hand, making the i386 distribution more affordable *will* improve adoption somewhat and stop newbs going to CheapBytes or friends, getting revenue into the project and creating more potential donors. How about $10 or $20 to download the .ISO, which is all the kids (who don't know enough to FTP install) want these days?

      Perhaps this could be sold as a .torrent, and the tracker for it could implement some minor authentication somehow. .torrents are small and every client supports resuming properly, so there'd be less support cost on the "Wah, I paid and my download was incomplete!" front.

      In terms of alternate revenue models... Would it be ridiculous to open a certificate authority as a side venture? I'm sure Mozilla could be convinced to trust it, and selling listings could finance a lot with relatively little effort.

      1. By KBAKEP (159.93.100.69) on

        In the case of downloadable ISO (with any mechanism - FTP, Torrent, whatever) it's easy to share it.
        In the case of nice hard copy almost none will do that, because one should do an iso-image at least. People are lazy enough, I think that to pay for CDs is better choice than to pay for download.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (64.145.133.82) on

          Yes, but as the OP of the paid-download line of thought, does the decrease in delivery and pressing cost outweigh the theft-potential?

          I've assembled my own .ISO layout for a user who absolutely couldn't FTP install; there are plenty of tutorials, it's not rocket science, and all it takes is one non-lazy person sharing to fuck the physical-delivery model up anyway.

          (Of course, 'steal and donate' is always a workable mantra, but a profitable number of people will actually pay for convenience... it's just that online delivery has completely obsoleted CD delivery as the convenient thing for a majority of the population.)

          1. By KBAKEP (159.93.100.69) on

            Yes, of course.

            But my proposal is aimed only to save CD's business. In my opinion it is not as effective as it can be. If this business sucks, try to change its strategy. Now it looks like a donation. People pay for discs they don't use a lot. Why? Disc don't contain enough software to install. CDs have a lot of software, that people don't use at all (many other paltform than their favorite one). So, it would be better to make CDs more effective.

    3. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

      Cool, if they went x86 only, I would stop buying CDs.

      1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

        sorry forgot the </sarcasm> tag

      2. By KBAKEP (159.93.100.69) on

        No, it means to sell discs separately.
        I think OpenBSD team should post a poll to find out the platform popularity and concentrate their efforts in CDs on the most popular ones.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

          Does it not increase the cost to produce seperate resleases for each platform ?

          I use OpenBSD on 4 platforms and none of them are x86, but there again I donate money and hardware so I guess I really buy CDs just to have a copy.

          1. By KBAKEP (159.93.100.69) on

            I suppose that here Pareto's Law (80-20 law) works too. The team should concentrate their efforts on ~ 3-4 platforms (compared to 6 now).
            I think, it could be IA32 (x86), AMD64 (x86_64), PowerPC, SPARC.
            To reveal an interest to platforms OpenBSD should place a poll at their site.

            1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

              The number of platforms is not really the issue

              1. By KBAKEP (159.93.100.28) on

                The price is.

  21. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

    ...it'd be easier to get cash. Rubbing people the wrong way can fuck with things you care about. Now, OpenBSD fanboys are gonna respond "we'll we don't give a shit about what you think... we do this for us". So don't whine or talk about "Oh no! We have no money!" when your biggest problem and impediment is the attitude of your leadership. You reap what you sow, brothers... you've made you're bed, now sleep in it.

    1. By Waldo_nova (206.221.246.130) on

      We may reap what we sow, but we donít mix our metaphors.

      1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

        Wow, what a comeback.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (156.34.223.129) on

          "Now, OpenBSD fanboys are gonna respond ..."

          And now the hordes (well two or three actually ... but they make up for there numbers by with the wit and fury of their posts) Theo-haters swarm over from their Slashdot link to blame fund raising problems and conflict in the Middle-East on Theo's venomous personality....

        2. By Anonymous Coward (206.221.246.130) on

          et tu... Actually, if there were a foundation or something like that in place, your point would have merit. However, it seems that most of the money that funds the product comes from the users. I have rolled out a lot of OpenBSD machines sitting in front of the winboxen to keep them out of harms way. Itís quick and easy to install and has a great track record for security. I can sell people on why this is the best OS to use for this job. Having said that, I donít give a ratís ass if the project leader drop-kicks seal pups on his time off. I choose it (and I buy the CDís that support it) because this is a business decision, not a popularity contest.

          1. By Anonymous Coward (155.246.68.212) on

            for better or for worse "quality of a product" is not the only thing that affects how managers decide to hand out money

    2. By Anonymous Coward (68.104.17.51) on

      yeah, that great impediment that has prompted everyone to abandon openSSH, made ipf the de facto BSD firewall system, caused the complete abandonment of openbsd-related projects, etc.

      whatever.

      1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

        Oh, I never said it caused anyone to dump OpenBSD. But you can't deny that it *has* cost OpenBSD potential adoption and money.

        1. By marco (149.169.52.105) on

          Oh, I never said it caused anyone to dump OpenBSD. But you can't deny that it *has* cost OpenBSD potential adoption and money.

          i will

          show me an email/webpage/fax/whatever that said "we, ACME Computer Company, were going to donate X dollars to OpenBSD but decided against it because Theo can be abrasive"

          furthermore, if a better solution to a problem happened to be based on OpenBSD, and a contractor/worker decided against it because Theo was abrasive ... you suggest that Theo is the problem? how much do tickets cost to your fantasy world?

          1. By Anonymous Coward (71.118.12.250) on

            ...and you also say the sky isnt blue. Theo's abrasiveness has cost him support. It's talked about within and without OpenBSD. Denial doesn't weaken the results.

          2. By Anonymous Coward (192.150.10.200) on

            I'd have given hundreds of my own, personal dollars to OpenBSD over the last 10 years, and explicitly decided against it based soley on TdR's treatment of me personally on a mailing list, the first time I ever encountered the guy. Far short of an empty promise, I have in fact given that money to other open source causes in lieu of giving it to OpenBSD. I've even got some tee shirts.

            So, now to see OpenBSD ask other projects for money, disrepects me and the choice I made in giving my money to those projects rather than OpenBSD.

            Not to mention, as a one-time solutions integrator in the Detroit, Michigan area (read: honorary Canadian), I was in a position to put OpenBSD CD purchases as a line-item cost on my customer invoices. Not only would it not have hurt my deals, it would have helped them, given customer jitters about using something "free."

            Instead, I purchased CD's of something else and rolled them into the deal. My customers did in fact pay for those CD's, and would have paid for OpenBSD CD's had I gone that route, it wouldn't have changed the sales pitch or my ability to close the deal one iota.

            So yes, those are real dollars that were lost. But go ahead and keep being in denial.

            [I'm not the other poster in the thread.]

          3. By Stephen Hurd (142.165.59.202) shurd@sasktel.net on

            I've personally decided to not go with OpenBSD on numerous occasions simply because (as I tend to put it) "Theo is an ass".

            If I have the occasion to actually expand on my comments (and haven't driven the listener away with my personal assiness by this time) I go on to express my respect for Theo and the work he's done. I also tend to agree with his sentiments.

            On a project I work on, I've often driven other developers to distraction by massively breaking their bits and saying that it wasn't done the Right Way, and so I took it upon myself to change it. This however has generally been kept inside the developer circle, not in "public". I have however been guilty of being driven to the point of saying things such as "The feature you want is not possible to be implemented in a manner that is right. Although I could easily enough implement something that appears to work, I won't and will actively try to block any attempt to do so." to users who harp on something long enough.

            I'm quite sure that I could get along with Theo quite well in person, but he is the poster boy for OpenBSD and it *has* affected my decisions. Theo is very much like OpenBSD... user-friendly, but picky about its friends.

            In all, if OpenBSD managed to glean a new poster boy, and Theo became instead the security officer and keeper of the code I think perception would change quite a bit. It is quite rare that OpenBSD is the only way to get something done. It is uncommon that OpenBSD is the unarguably best way to get something done. It is not completely uncommon that OpenBSD is not the easiest way to get something Done Right. If I can get the job Done Right using something else within an order of magnitude of the effort, I tend to choose the other thing.

            And finally, the bit about OpenBSD that probobly irks me more than the various Theo-isms throught the ages (and lets face it, as I understood it, Theo was once of the "Keep it in the developer circle" camp... and got kicked out.) is simply this. "MS-DOS: twenty-five years with zero remote holes in the default install". That metric is crap. Everyone knows it's crap. A less impressive example of the same metric lives on in red on the OpenBSD home page. As long as that is a traditional part of the OpenBSD home page, I can't overcome my massive irk for OpenBSD.</rant>

          4. By Anonymous Coward (68.193.228.10) on

            ppl dont post that on their web pages because they dont care to, they just stop supporting the project, i know we did, so openbsd was down a couple of hunder CD orders a year, h/w donations, t-shirt purchaces, and actual money

          5. By Anonymous Coward (66.11.66.41) on

            Dude, my wardrobe consists entirely of openbsd t-shirts. I used to buy the cds every 6 months. I don't anymore. I still use openbsd, but I don't support it at all, if it goes tits up I guess I'll just have to switch to NetBSD, oh well. Its not just that Theo is a dick, he's also a liar and a fraud. "Users don't matter, fuck you we do what we want" followed by "boo hoo, we need money from you users" is pretty pathetic. Nevermind the obvious fact that he wastes a shitload of money keeping all that hardware in his house for no reason, when people have offered to host it for free, in a real datacenter, with a much better internet connection.

            1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

              Theo's a liar and a fraud ?

          6. By Charles (216.229.170.65) on

            The U.S. DoD grant falls under this category.

            All the arguments about Theo's right to free speech, the U.S. deserving the criticism, and the reaction by the DoD being childish may be valid, but are beside the point. Theo's abrasive comments resulted in a loss of revenue, which is the example you asked for.

            Here's another Theo quote for you to chew on: "... but [this software] must be free to all (be they people or companies), for any purpose they wish to use it, including modification, use, peeing on, or even integration into baby mulching machines or atomic bombs to be dropped on Australia."

            He's right, of course, but these types of sound bites aren't exactly what most big corporations want coming out in the press about their partners or sponsored projects.

            Tact is probably best described as the ability to tell someone there are a complete shithead and have them thank you for it. Theo lacks tact.


      2. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

        Also, it's 'pf' not 'ipf'.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (216.175.250.42) on

          Literacy is fun. If you could read, we might care about what you say.

          1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

            What does literacy have to do with anything I said? Unless you're retarded, it was perfectly cogent.

            1. By Anonymous Coward (68.104.17.51) on

              "ipf" was meant, another "loss" supposedly tied to theo's abrasiveness which has not hurt the project, but hey carry on calling people retarded you smart guy.

              or if you still don't get it, how's "i wasn't actually saying that people were dumping openssh and ipf was the de facto bsd packet filter."?

              1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

                Yay! I'm a smart guy!

            2. By Sam (67.70.139.27) on

              He really meant ipf, he was incorrectly corrected, the point was that pf has become a common firewall on all the BSDs, while ipf has seen a steady decrease in BSD users.

    3. By Anonymous Coward (69.28.228.76) on

      No there's an elephant in the room everyone wants to talk about.

  22. By Michael (213.89.186.25) mickep76@yahoo.com on

    Maybe a modell similar to Firefox/Google could be arranged with some larger corporations. Like providing their links as bookmarks, or ads during install or similar. The combination of free and commercial support seems to work for a lot of products for ex. Firefox, MySQL, QT to name a few. Regards Michael

  23. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

    That's what you get for using a BSD license, and letting anyone help themselves to your work. There's a reason some people like the GPL, ya know... it's not that it will make you money, but it makes your code more visible since credit attribution is manadatory. Suckers.

    1. By Anonymous Coward (69.70.207.240) on

      Rather than flame you and make you look like the obvious fool you really are, all I need to say is that you really, really need to get a clue... I'm sure the GNU/GPL folks would get a good laugh at you too.

      1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

        Don't flame me; pick apart my point and tell me why I'm wrong. I dare you.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

          Actually companies are more likely to adopt a BSD code than GPL for that very reason, and as the goal is to get quality software out into everyone elses codebase then they succeed.

          OpenBSDs code features in many open source and commercial codebases.

          Linux is generally only marketed by big corporations because it gets them good press. The GPL would not stop a situation like this occurring elsewhere.

        2. By Anonymous Coward (203.65.245.7) on

          There's nothing to pick apart. Neither license deals with financing or monetary issues. From a corporate financing standpoint wether a project uses GPL or BSD is completely irrelevant.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (68.104.17.51) on

      it helps if you read the BSD license sometime instead of speaking out of your arse.

      " * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
      * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
      * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
      * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
      * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution."

      1. By Anonymous Coward (66.207.218.19) on

        You've been trolled, fag!

        1. By Anonymous Coward (68.104.17.51) on

          wow, you must be popular on slashdot.

          but hey, maybe you're not an idiot and you're actually a really super smart rational thinker who trolls undeadly.org out of intellectual curiosity because thats what smart people tend to do, along with calling people "fag" and "retarded".

    3. By Anonymous Coward (64.146.5.50) on

      Though the incentives to give back are extremely weak, BSD licensed software is very much appreciated for the simple fact that it's BSD licensed. For that it's doomed to a mediocre existence, lucky to be alive and such, but if you ever want an operating system that's free and not bound to the terms of the GPL, it's nice to know that there's still some "suckers" out who are willing to provide one. I don't mind sending a small donation their way.

    4. By Anonymous Coward (203.65.245.7) on

      This has NOTHING to do with the BSD license or the GPL. Both licenses deadl with source code, not with financing. Stop trying to start a flamewar.

  24. By Michael (213.89.186.25) mickep76@yahoo.com on

    Another model that might work is charging for downloads of ISO like 5$ per download by paypal and then provid temporary user/password that will expire within 24h.

    1. By KBAKEP (159.93.100.28) on

      Do you think about people with bad connectivity?
      Do you now that PayPal doesn't work with many countries?
      And again, why should I pay for that? Someone can download it once and give the ISO to anyone else. Almost nothing to do more. With current situation (only CD and FTP/HTTP/etc) I don't see any ISO in free distribution.

      When you buy a cheap CD, you have something material, and you need one more operation to share a distribution to anyone in the Internet.
      I think, cheap CDs are better then cheap downloads.

  25. By Michael (213.89.186.25) mickep76@yahoo.com on

    I think the decline of CD purchase is simply because people are lazy and want the CD's directly which they can by using FTP. It's a good example of psychology if a person is given a problem he won't choose the correct way to solve it but the fastest, this is very common when trying to enforce security.

    1. By rmg (208.181.115.2) on

      The cd's aren't available for download. You can only get bootable cd's if you buy them or build them yourself.

      You have to boot off a floppy image and do a network install otherwise. This is something OpenBSD has done for quite some time, to encourage cd sales.

      1. By Charles (216.229.170.65) on

        Ummm... no. The OFFICIAL .isos aren't available but head on over to Google and search for "openbsd iso" and you'll find a ton.

        http://openbsd.sabotage.org/

  26. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

    So how exaclty can I donate to OpenSSH *only*? Personally I use OpenSSH a lot and would definitely contribute money to support *its* development.

    What I don't care about is OpenBSD, so I have no interest in supporting it. You guys are shooting yourselves in the foot by bundling the two in the same donation package...

    1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

      As Theo is responsible for both, you would be asking him to give up OpenBSD

      1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

        I'm not asking anyone anything - last I checked you guys were asking for money.

        I'm just pointing out that you're leaving *my* (and potentially many other people's) money on the table because you don't offer me the option to donate to the project I really care about. People are extremely peculiar with their money, you know, they like for it to go where they intend to. Having the option of donating some money to *both* OpenSSH and OpenBSD or not donating at all, I choose the latter.

        1. By Nate (65.95.241.143) on

          And you seem to be slow in the head, Theo is the head developer of OpenBSD, OpenSSH is a part of OpenBSD. You cannot donate blood to someone's arm, just be cause you like their arm more than their face.

          1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

            And you seem to be slow in the head, Theo is the head developer of OpenBSD, OpenSSH is a part of OpenBSD.

            Speaking of slow, let me spell it out again for you: I don't give a fuck who's the head, who's the arm and who's in need of a brain transplant (sorry). *YOU* are asking for *MY* money. My money would go to OpenSSH but not to OpenBSD. If *YOU* can't arrange for that then you'll have to go beg somewhere else.

            Seriously, how many rocket scientists does it take to realize that OpenSSH is the more successful project and needs to be split (at least organizationally) in order take advantage of its popularity? OpenBSD is really dragging it down...

            1. By Anonymous Coward (85.181.32.229) on

              I would not choose your words to describe what you are saying, but I do fully agree with your point.

              I would prefer to donate to the projects I use and benifit from directly. I do not use OpenBSD due to the fact that I cannot get any vendor support for commercial applications.

              But I really rely on openssh for my daily work and also use it privately. Therefor I would donate to the development of openssh directly.

              1. By Anonymous Coward (66.32.183.249) on

                What the hell does it matter? He does both, including OpenSSH, so donate. Just because you don't give a shit about OpenBSD doesn't mean his work on OpenSSH is any less valid.

                1. By Anonymous Coward (68.193.228.10) on

            2. By Nate (65.95.241.143) on

              And you're completely daft boy, OpenSSH isn't being held back by OpenBSD, it's being made by it. The biggest developers of OpenSSH are OpenBSD developers, otherwise there are a few people that just work on OpenSSH alone. There is no splitting it, feel free to fork it though.

              1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                And you're completely daft boy

                What exactly is there about OpenBSD that makes its zealots turn ad hominem on everyone that thinks differently?

                OpenSSH isn't being held back by OpenBSD, it's being made by it. The biggest developers of OpenSSH are OpenBSD developers, otherwise there are a few people that just work on OpenSSH alone.

                Who's developing what is totally irrelevant, we're talking *popularity* here (speaking of slow again;): the mere fact that OpenSSH comes bundled in zillions of free and not-so-free OSes makes it the poster project. Its userbase is larger by orders of magnitude than the OpenBSD one. This popularity could be easily capitalized IFF OpenSSH wasn't tied to OpenBSD. Your choice.

                There is no splitting it

                Then you have to leave with the consequences. *YOU* are asking for money. *YOU* are leaving it on the table. Again, it's your choice.

                1. By Nate (65.95.241.143) on

                  I'm not asking for shit, I donated more than 250 $ Cdn just a little while ago. You're just stupid and don't seem to understand the way things work, anyways, feel free to suck my balls and all that jazz, since you obviously can't use your head for much else.

                  1. By brian (199.111.115.105) on

                    LOLyah..

            3. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

              OK lets try this another way, go to Apple or Microsoft or IBM or whoever and ask them if you can pay for just a part of their OS and not the whole thing, just the part you like.

              See how far it gets you.

              1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                I must have missed the part where Apple/Microsoft/IBM were asking for donations to support their OS development. If they were, I bet they would try really hard to make it easy for me and not for them.

                OpenSSH can clearly stand as an independent project, proven by its ability to run on countles OSes. There is no inherent dependency on OpenBSD, just a shared development team. Besides, nobody's askig for a complete fork/split just an organizational one: I want my money to pay for OpenSSH development not OpenBSD hackathons/whatever. If you can't arrange for that, no problem - but you lose my donation.

                1. By Alan DeWitt (70.58.207.244) on

                  "I must have missed the part where Apple/Microsoft/IBM were asking for donations to support their OS development."

                  They call it "sales".

            4. By Anonymous Coward (66.11.66.41) on

              "Speaking of slow, let me spell it out again for you: I don't give a fuck who's the head, who's the arm and who's in need of a brain transplant (sorry). *YOU* are asking for *MY* money. My money would go to OpenSSH but not to OpenBSD. If *YOU..* can't arrange for that then you'll have to go beg somewhere else."

              Um, this is an openbsd website. If you don't want to hear about how the openbsd project needs donations, then feel free to fuck off. Nobody is demanding your money. If you want to support openssh's development, then donate to openbsd. If you don't, then don't. Pretty simple huh?

              "Seriously, how many rocket scientists does it take to realize that OpenSSH is the more successful project and needs to be split (at least organizationally) in order take advantage of its popularity? OpenBSD is really dragging it down..."

              No, OpenBSD is not dragging it down, the OpenBSD project caused it to exist. They do not want to split it, and do not give a shit if retards like yourself do not donate because its not split.

        2. By tedu (69.12.168.114) on

          is it too hard to type "for openssh" when you make a donation?

          1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

            rrright, and the effect of that would be...?

            1. By marco, but not marco@ (149.169.52.105) on

              ... that you are making a donation to the people who develop openssh?

              1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                ... who just happen to be the same people that develop OpenBSD, right?

                Now that would be ironic: after the kind people around here have taken great pain to make it crystal clear that OpenSSH & OpenBSD share developers, servers, meetings, girlfriends, etc. and donating to OpenSSH alone is impossible, now you're telling me that it actually _is_ possible?

                So let me put it another way: how do you convince me that the money I give you for OpenSSH will not be spent for OpenBSD development?

                This page (linked from openssh.org) clearly states that the donations go to OpenBSD: http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html - sorry, I'm not taking your word for it being any different.

                My suggestion was to have separate organizational entities for OSSH & OBSD so that people like me can support the project they care for. As OSSH is by far the most popular, I'm pretty sure it will do quite well as many potential contributors are now held back by its association with OBSD.

                1. By tedu (69.12.168.114) on

                  come on, you don't think _any_ money goes to openssh? that openbsd developers are gonna take it all and refuse to make openssh better? never mind, you didn't want to donate, you found yourself an excuse, and now you're golden.

                  1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                    That's not the point: *I* don't want any of my money to go to OBSD. IOW I want to donate to OSSH not OBSD. Simple.

                    1. By marco, but not marco@ (149.169.52.105) on

                      well, i guess you can't donate

                      don't feel bad, i donated in place of you. fortunately for openbsd, i don't suffer from stupid

                      1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                        well, i guess you can't donate don't feel bad

                        Don't worry - I don't. But then I'm not the one writing articles begging for donations either...

                        fortunately for openbsd, i don't suffer from stupid

                        That would be "stupidity", but how would you know? And unfortunately for OBSD you do suffer from it: you seem to think that bundling is a great concept when it comes to donations.

                        Here's some news: it isn't. You're basicaly going after 3 categories: people only interested in OBSD, people only interested in OSSH (this is by far the largest) and people interested in both. Here's the catch: with your scheme you're only getting donations from the last category. Why? Because nobody's going to throw money at something they're simply not interested in. Should I bring in the clue bat? How hard is that to understand? Why is everyone so fucking offended by the simple fact that I just don't have any interest in OBSD?! Are you all brainwashed?! *sigh*

                        Now, if you have nominal donation options you're going to catch all three categories. This is sooooo obvious even somebody who suffers from stupidity should get it.

                        I came here with best intentions and all I did was suggest a way of maximizing your donation income by following the logic mentioned above. I explained what stopped *me* from making a contribution. Any rational individual would have looked at the arguments, tried to come up with a solution and make sure this is not a more fundamental problem that hurts the donation stream at its base. What do i get instead? Insults, irony, close-minded/ad-hominen anwers.

                        I'm sorry to say this but ./ seems like an intelectually refined crowd compared to this place. You failed on so many levels that in my opinion you deserve whatever is coming at you.

                        1. By Anonymous Coward (68.238.237.188) on

                          This is precisely why you spend all your time using Linux, going on and on about the Bazaar, Open Source Development Models, and all that crap, instead of OpenBSD. If everyone who used OpenSSH gave $5 on the condition that it only be used to work on OpenSSH, there would be one of two results:

                          1) people would spend all the money adding features until OpenSSH was just another crappy, overdeveloped free software project that could render html, execute perl scripts, and access a MySQL database but would be filled with bugs that would never have happened in the first place had it not been filled with half-baked, unformatted patches supplied by people like you in the first place; or,

                          2) the money sits in a bank account doing nothing 'cause no one wants the project to end up like 1).

                          If you want to make OpenSSH better, give money to OpenBSD. Then, when there's a bug that needs fixing, or a genuine need to improve/modify/add to the source tree, it will be able to get done in a timely fashion instead of being put off until Theo and Marco get back from the Graveyard shift at McDonalds.

                          1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                            So basically money is bad for OSSH... but since I'm not really interested in sabotaging OBSD either I think I'll spare them too ;)

                            You do seem to know a lot about me and my coding skills though, so I have no choice but tip my hat to such informed statements and thank God OBSD has around intelligent lads such as yourself.

                        2. By squeege (69.28.228.218) on

                          Whoah... chillax, kids.

                          As much as I disagree the originator of this thread [Anonymous Coward (IP 24.92.153.74)] for his dismissal of OpenBSD, I do respect his point of view.

                          Once again, I am disappointed at how biased and inflammatory *some* OpenBSD supporters are being here.

                          The guy has an opinion, and if you stand back and look at the big picture, he does make valid points.

                          Why everyone has to attack him like a pack of wild jackals makes no sense to me; this only serves to make the OpenBSD community look bad.

                          Now I'm a huge fan of OpenBSD and have been buying CDs and swag since I started using it two years ago, even making the odd donation... hell, if I could afford it, I would do more.

                          Nonetheless, it's his money, and he's right, if he's to give it, he should be satisfied with the use it will have.

                          I don't see why we should demonize him for his point of view.

                          It's truly ironic that people that are so attached to the ideals of this highly principled OS are so quick to attack someone's right to free speech/thinking.

                          1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                            ... for his dismissal of OpenBSD ...

                            "dismissal" is too strong of a word, I would call it "lack of interest" or maybe "ignorance": I've never used OBSD and don't know squat about it. I believe I should not be forced to become an OBSD supporter if all I want is donate to OSSH.

                            That said, as I promissed veins, I'll get the hell out of here.

                            Good luck raising that money...

                        3. By pech (89.49.202.105) on

                          > well, i guess you can't donate
                          > don't feel bad
                          >
                          > Don't worry - I don't. But then I'm not the one writing articles begging for donations either...
                          >
                          > fortunately for openbsd, i don't suffer from stupid
                          > That would be "stupidity", but how would you know? And unfortunately for OBSD you do suffer from it: you seem to think that bundling is a great concept when it comes to donations.
                          >
                          > Here's some news: it isn't. You're basicaly going after 3 categories: people only interested in OBSD, people only interested in OSSH (this is by far the largest) and people interested in both. Here's the catch: with your scheme you're only getting donations from the last category. Why? Because nobody's going to throw money at something they're simply not interested in. Should I bring in the clue bat? How hard is that to understand? Why is everyone so fucking offended by the simple fact that I just don't have any interest in OBSD?! Are you all brainwashed?! *sigh*
                          >
                          > Now, if you have nominal donation options you're going to catch all three categories. This is sooooo obvious even somebody who suffers from stupidity should get it.
                          >
                          > I came here with best intentions and all I did was suggest a way of maximizing your donation income by following the logic mentioned above. I explained what stopped *me* from making a contribution. Any rational individual would have looked at the arguments, tried to come up with a solution and make sure this is not a more fundamental problem that hurts the donation stream at its base. What do i get instead? Insults, irony, close-minded/ad-hominen anwers.
                          > I'm sorry to say this but ./ seems like an intelectually refined crowd compared to this place. You failed on so many levels that in my opinion you deserve whatever is coming at you.



                          i bet you are one of the persons who buy every item in the supermarket because it has "33% more inside for free" LOL

                          but i have to admit that 98% of the human race is too dumb to realize this and so it probably would increase the donations if they 'would' split it... but on the other side i expect the obsd users to be in the 2% part of the human race... (btw, the 98/2 numbers are from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensa_International)

                          so feel free to not donate to somebody who creates your daily used software, because he creates additional software too :/

                          i wish you lot's of fun with your 33% more for free ROFL

                          greets, pech


                    2. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

                      "IOW I want to donate to OSSH not OBSD. Simple."

                      OSSH is a part of OBSD. Simple.

                      1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                        so which part of my suggestion of separating it from OBSD in order to atract more donations don't you undestand?

                        1. By tedu (69.12.168.114) on

                          the part where you suggested separating it.

                          1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                            sorry then.

                        2. By Chris (24.76.100.162) on

                          The part where OpenSSH rides on the same physical infrastructure, set of developers, and libraries as OpenBSD, and where funding one is funding the other, whether you like it or not.

                          They're intertwined to the point where if you tried to make some real separation of the two they'd probably lose more in wasted time and overhead than you'd ever make back from the few hundred (at the outside) extra people who'd give money. Would developers start keeping track of how many hours they spend on stuff that only for OpenSSH, could be for OpenSSH, and definitely not for OpenSSH?

                          So maybe they could lie to you, and *tell* you they're separated, would that make you feel better about it? Is the appearance of separation enough to make you donate? Even with some token separation, any money you send to them would in reality end up funding both projects, and you'd have to be seriously committed to fooling yourself to believe otherwise. Maybe that's what you need though, in place of simply weighing the situation as it is, and deciding if it's worth it for you to donate to a project you benefit from.

                  2. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

                    "come on, you don't think _any_ money goes to openssh?"

                    OpenSSH is a part of OpenBSD, so yes the money goes into OpenSSH development

                2. By Anonymous Coward (66.32.183.249) on

                  No, its just you. Most people have no problems donating to an organization that provides something as useful as OpenSSH, regardless of how involved in OpenBSD they might be.

                3. By Taylor (158.171.31.13) on

                  How would donations for OpenSSH work? I am not sure how developers are paid, but I assume they are just trying to stay a float and are not working on some hourly basis. Not coding when they are not paid for the hours they put in. Since there is not a group of dedicated group of OpenSSH developers then how would OpenSSH-only donations be used? There could be a organization to take donations for OpenSSH. That money would then be split and sent to developers. Those developers also get funds from OpenBSD donations. It may feel different, but ends up the same.

                  Are you suggesting having a dedicated group of OpenSSH-only developers?

        3. By Anonymous Coward (12.222.146.208) on

          I don't think you get the point that without OpenBSD, there would be no OpenSSH, not to mention PF, CARP, and many other innovations that you unwittingly use and can be credited to the OpenBSD team.

          You are intitled to your opinion, but I disagree with you because of the above.

    2. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

      I guess this is where my humble attempt to donate to OpenSSH ends.

      I've offered to support a project I use & appreciate and been told I can only do that if I also support an OS I have no interest in. In the process I've also been called stupid, daft and politetly been invited to "suck balls and all that jazz" because I obviously can't understand "how things work".

      Luckily, an epiphany dawned on me: I don't have to go through the pain of stuffing all that complex understanding into my daft head. I could simply... NOT DONATE!

      And guess what? That works for me, let me known how it works for y'all.

      1. By Sputnjik Ivan (65.94.58.127) on

        And the world is better for your leaving us to actually dealing with the issue, since we'd rather have people who do shit than people that like to be stupid whiners.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

          Well, we're all experiencing the results of your dealing with the issue as we speak, aren't we?

          The current process has strings attached: you donate if you agree to sponsor both projects. Well, I don't so I don't donate.

          I offered a simple suggestion that would make donations more attractive for potential contributors: separate funds for OSSH & OBSD. For some reason that didn't go down too well but now I'll let you go back to your productive work and probably won't bother with donations again.

          1. By veins (82.237.196.140) veins@epitech.net on http://lab.skreel.org

            Mmh ... You've made your point and I think we all got it right. You won't support OpenSSH because it's part of OpenBSD and you don't want to support that. Ok, good for you, but ... why are you still here after so many posts ?

            1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

              You've made your point and I think we all got it right. You won't support OpenSSH because it's part of OpenBSD and you don't want to support that. Ok, good for you

              You still missed the point, that's just sustaining evidence: what you guys refuse to acknowledge is that OSSH is far more widespread than OBSD. You should be focusing on *that* popularity for fund raising. From outside, OBSD is just some unnecessary baggage and tying OSSH to it only discourages potential contributors. You might disagree, but for an OSSH user (and I think there's no doubt there are many more OSSH users than OBSD users) this is exactly how things stand. Personally I think you are all too close and can't see the forest for the trees - you need to step back and try to see through your contributors' eyes if you want to raise money.

              but ... why are you still here after so many posts ?

              but... why are you asking me a question if you really want me to stop posting? :)

              Anyway, I do get your point and appreciate the civilized tone (first after a looong time) so I'll leave this fine community alone.

              Good luck with your fund raising.

              1. By Nate (65.95.229.9) on

                It's not that we cannot see the forest, it's that you only care about one tree in it. And you're completely blind-focused on trying to impose your will on something that could care less about some random schmuck off the street's unasked-for opinion.

                And your one "point", if it can be called that, boggled my mind. Obviously there are more users of OpenSSH than OpenBSD, since every OpenBSD user is an OpenSSH user and there are users on many other platforms. There are millions of installations out there.

                Seeing things through the contributors eyes is what we're doing, you're seeing it through the eyes of an outsider. The people who are contributors are people who put in code, money or hardware already - people who don't aren't. Rather simple, no?

                Personally, I think you were just here looking to stir up shit and be a dick, since you've been obcessing over a non-issue that you created.

              2. By Anonymous Coward (81.84.174.230) on

                That is YOUR point of view. YOU just act like you own everyone's opinions. I don't use OpenBSD, have never used OpenBSD, yet I'll donate. I know what the people behind the project can do, and have done, and they deserve my respect and appreciation. You clearly speak out of ignorance, and I'm sorry for you. The same people who created OpenBSD (the thing you don't give a flying fuck about) have also created OpenSSH, PF, CARP, OpenBGPD, among so many other things that have surely made an impact. Not donating because you'd rather see "OpenSSH" than "OpenBSD" in your "Donate to:" field, when the end result will be exactly the same, is simply retarded. I'll donate twice the money to make it up for you, ok? Go away now.

              3. By nibil (62.245.38.105) on

                You still missed the point, that's just sustaining evidence: what you guys refuse to acknowledge is that OSSH is far more widespread than OBSD. You should be focusing on *that* popularity for fund raising.

                In terms of total money raised splitting might be a great success and allow OpenSSH to continue on as a well funded project but if a proportion of that money cannot be used to support OBSD development then the split could only damage the finances of the OpenBSD part of the "Open project", possibly fatally.

                So you are suggesting that unbundling the two would lead to an increase in total donations (which is quite possibly true), whereas by bundling them together they are (trying to) leverage OpenSSH's popularity to support its parent project.

                The question then is, for the developers, is OpenSSH an end in itself or the means to the end of working on and developing a highly secure operating system. If its the former then splitting is the way to go, if its the latter then splitting is a Really Bad Thing.

          2. By Anonymous Coward (81.84.174.230) on

            After so many posts, you haven't understood that the people behind OpenSSH are the same behind OpenBSD?? What is the logic in creating separate funds for the two projects, when the money ends exactly in the same people ?

          3. By Anonymous Coward (165.254.210.2) on

            I offered a simple suggestion that would make donations more attractive for potential contributors: separate funds for OSSH & OBSD. For some reason that didn't go down too well but now I'll let you go back to your productive work and probably won't bother with donations again.

            These types of suggestions come up every 6 months/year. People are probably tired of hearing them (although this is no excuse for the rudeness). Search the Misc@ mailing list for similar suggestions (not necessarily splitting OpenSSH off, but in allowing donaters to specify what particular projects get the money they are donating).

            Have a great day. :)

      2. By marco, but not marco@ (149.169.52.105) on

        sorry ... i donated $50 to openbsd and not openssh

        unlike you, i trust theo to spend the money where *he* sees fit because it was a *donation* ... there is no such thing as a donation with strings which you seem to prefer

        1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

          That's your choice, you probably care for both. I don't: my choice is OSSH and I have no interest in sponsoring OBSD.

          Me choosing the project I donate to is not "strigs attached" but you forcing me to donate to something I don't care for is.

          1. By Nate (65.95.241.14) on

            You really cannot understand this simply concept, can you? OpenSSH is OpenBSD, it's not a seperate project. If you cannot cope with giving money to OpenBSD than stop being a whiney bitch and go away, sine you don't want to support OpenSSH.

            1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

              You really cannot understand this simply concept, can you? OpenSSH is OpenBSD, it's not a seperate project.

              what you fail to understand is that *that* is a choice. but then again, you've probably only used OBSD so it figures...

              1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

                "but then again, you've probably only used OBSD so it figures..."

                You obviously haven't, we can tell

                1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                  right, and tell me again: who's asking for whose money?

                  1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

                    No one has asked you to donate.

                    You want to tell the project how it should be run, and you will only donate if you can, then there are strings attached, so they don't want your money.

                    It's clear that you are not going to donate, so it does not matter if you want to throw your weight around. You think you have a voice if you donate, you don't, you think you have a voice if you don't donate, you don't.

                    No OpenBSD == no OpenSSH, simple.

                    1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

                      No OpenBSD == no OpenSSH, simple.

                      ... == no money from a large segment == your choice == fine with me

                      Sorry, I was under the false impression your project(s) needed funds and suggested a way for maximizing donations. I guess I was wrong, there must be no financial pressure as everybody seems busy with their dick in their hand...

                      1. By Anonymous Coward (70.74.75.200) on

                        >> No OpenBSD == no OpenSSH, simple.

                        > ... == no money from a large segment == your choice == fine with me

                        That is fine with the OpenBSD developers also. Where is your research on this "large segment" besides yourself? Is your donation large enough to buy every OpenSSH developer a cheese burger to think the developers are wrong?

                        > Sorry, I was under the false impression your project(s) needed funds and suggested a way for maximizing donations. I guess I was wrong, there must be no financial pressure as everybody seems busy with their dick in their hand...

                        If you weren't busy yourself, you could check the mailing list archives for such a stupid suggestion and many more suggestions to raise funds before. None of the suggestions upon suggestions has yielded any fruitful results in the past, so why should anyone care about yet another ignorant suggestion?

                        You came here knowing nothing about OpenBSD and OpenSSH development, but think your suggestion is gold without any hard evidence; thus, you received the attention you deserve.

                        If you can't make an altruistic donation to OpenBSD where you directly benefit, then don't waste their time as well as yours. Go donate to GNU instead. Linux is just a kernel.

      3. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

        I don't know

        How does this work for you ?

        Hmmm ?

    3. By cfrankbernard (63.255.174.162) on

      I accidentally modded parent *down* :(

      Anyway, allowing/receiving donations designated for OpenSSH can only *increase* donations for at least some of the OpenBSD crew. And with more money they can probably afford to "work" on thier computers and help the other members of the crew more often :)

  27. By John Frakes (159.140.254.10) unixengineer@earthlink.net on http://www.unixsystemengineer.com

    I have used OpenBSD for about 7 years now and it has significantly improved. You can tell a lot of hard work has gone into it and the material (SSH Architecture) for example is of the highest quality. However, CD sales and swag are a far cry from the support something that has grown so big needs.

    Might I suggest asking (begging) for corporate sponsorships from larger companies that use and/or profit to a degree from the efforts put into OpenBSD. A good example would be if a company like IBM who distributes OpenSSH and OpenSSL with it's Linux toolkits for AIX could help contribute not only in development, but in financial means. There are a lot of vendors that use OpenSSH, write documentation to the use of it with their software and OS's and have adopted it as the defacto standard for connecting to systems. While OpenBSD hasn't reached that level of use, the thought and development that makes it great also goes into OpenSSH.

    A call for help in continuing the project could be put out to IBM, HP and Sun. By identifying the importance of OpenSSH with major vendor's systems, you could potentially get assistance in the financial needs of this project.

    1. By strider5 (65.124.161.144) on

      it should be noted that Sun uses OpenSSH in Solaris 10. I would be actively probing them for a sizeable donation. Doesn't OS X also bundle OpenSSH?

      Yes, support from people helps, but let's face it: Sun has $6 billion cash-on-hand

      1. By Nate (65.95.241.143) on

        Juniper, IBM, HP, Sun, Cisco, Apple and many others all use OpenSSH as a part of their operating systems.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (66.11.66.41) on

          Don't forget Microsoft uses the openbsd userland for SFU. I think they have a few bucks they could spare.

          1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

            not to mention all the companies that use strlcpy

  28. By Anonymous Coward (82.165.25.219) on

    Maybe they are losing money because noone is actually buying CDs since noone is really using OpenBSD (apart from zealots extremists). I guess the small part of users who are using it should actually be _paid_ to use such insecure OS, and that's maybe why OpenBSD would need so much money to sustain their users. If tomorrow Theo pays me $10 a day to run his OS, then I will willingly install it and use it, if not .. then sorry Mr Good guy hacker, you'll have to work at McDonalds like any respected opensource developper!

    Oh, and by the way, Get a life.

    --

    1. By Anonymous Coward (216.175.250.42) on

      "Oh, and by the way, Get a life."

      You can't write something like this...

    2. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

      "Maybe they are losing money because noone is actually using OpenBSD (apart from zealots extremists)."

      No-one uses *inux or *BSD but zealot extremists.

    3. By Anonymous Coward (203.9.92.100) on

      if it smells like a troll, speaks like a troll and walks like a troll then it's a troll !! end of discussion.

    4. By Anonymous Coward (69.28.228.76) on

      Oh, and by the way, Get a life.

      Ah, the dulcet tones of the typical Slashdot Troll. The only troll with less sense is the ever-popular Digg Troll.

  29. By Anonymous Coward (68.54.14.236) on

    'The reason why the project has been able to maintain integrity is by simply saying "no" to outside preassure. Doing the right thing can and sometimes is painful, but it is what makes the project into what it is today. All donations will therefore have to be without any strings attached.'

    I think that's BS. You can always reject projects that don't suit the goals of OpenBSD, but turning away all "strings attached" money is just stupid. There are many occasions where a company has paid to have their hardware supported, their protocol implemented, or their research project enabled. What do you care if you're paid $20k to implement Bluetooth, for example. Use half to pay for the time, the other half to pay for hackathons. Don't contribute it to the code base if you don't think it's worthy.

    The previous poster is right--Theo can't go out demanding money on his terms. Businesses expect a return on their investment. Individuals contributing $100 checks this month will not do so next month, whereas businesses will.

    Shooting yourself in the foot results in being shot in the foot, not "looking good" for keeping to unreasonable, unnecessary, and unattainable principles.

    1. By Nate (65.95.241.143) on

      You're an idoit, SMP was added by a company hiring a developer to add it. If a company wants to hire a developer to add something, as long as it's not going against the goals of the project, it's fine.

      1. By Anonymous Coward (68.54.14.236) on

        You're an even bigger idiot. Wouldn't you prefer if the company donated $100k to get SMP support, and only half was required to actually add it? Buy a clue, for you, they'll be cheap.

        1. By Nate (65.95.241.143) on

          No, moron, OpenBSD doesn't take a big donation and then pool work to get this one magical feature some company wants made - that's what was already said about strings. If you want to hire people to work, you hire them. Feel free to give them a bonus for getting their work done properly and quickly.

          1. By Anonymous Coward (68.54.14.236) on

            Thanks for making my point exactly. If OpenBSD doesn't take donations for product features, they can't really whine about not getting donations, can they? What business is going to donate money with no promise of getting anything in return? Except for token chunks of cash which does nothing to promote the long term stability of the project.

            So, the project is already taking your attitude. No strings, no money. You're approach is why the project is hurting.

            1. By Nate (65.95.241.143) on

              Are you really this stupid or are you trying to provoke a response? Developers being hired for a job gets that "anything in return," whereas a donation doesn't get you shit - that's what a donation is.

              1. By Anonymous Coward (68.54.14.236) on

                Yes, I'm really stupid. You caught me. Having run a business for 15 years, I often "donate" my company's money to causes with no expectation of return. It really makes my shareholders and my bottom line happy.

                You're stupidity boggles the mind. You go out saying, "Give me money, and you get nothing." Individuals will say "Sure!" this month, but not next. Companies, who could write checks monthly forever if OpenBSD were able to deliver something they needed, will not.

                Is that really hard to understand? Do you really believe companies will give money to a project for NOTHING?

                How hard is it to add support for a protocol or piece of hardware in return for a $50k-$100k? If that's hard, then don't go whining when no one is contributing $50k-$100k.

                You're the problem with all free software. People expect free can somehow be self-sustaining. Eventually everyone has to pay the bills, and you get what you pay for.

                Grow up. 14 year-olds without the benefit of Economics 101 spout the same nonsense you are. Welcome to the real world. I'll buy a CD, but I'm not going to have my company sign over $50k for nothing. So, how's that working for you? Are all those CD purchases making up for the $50k check I'm not writing?

                What an idiot...

                1. By Anonymous Coward (68.54.14.236) on

                  Oh, and before you rant that I wouldn't REALLY write such a check... Over the last year, my company has spent over $2M on developers to produce a product based upon OpenBSD. Most of that work could easily have been done by the OpenBSD foundation for the benefit of everyone. I would have had ZERO problem writing a check for half of that to OpenBSD if I could have gotten what I needed.

                  Oh well. Let's cross our fingers someone buys 300,000 CDs real soon now and that OpenBSD's CD profit margin is awefully good.

                  1. By Nate (65.95.229.9) on

                    If you need something added to OpenBSD, you hire a developer, you don't make a donation. It's how things work, a donation comes without strings, hiring someone allows you to tell them what you want them to do.

                  2. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

                    So come on then, what was this killer feature that cost you $2M ?

                    How much net profit did you make ?

                    Why would the OpenBSD team not touch it ?

                    1. By Anonymous Coward (68.54.14.236) on

                      The OpenBSD foundation wouldn't touch it because they want money with no strings attached. My development money MUST delever results. The only way to ensure I got what I needed was to hire developers.

                      The end result is that most of the code will not be released to the public (I don't really want to support it if it's not running on my specific hardware, nor do I want to bundle it, synchronize patches, etc.) In short, my company doesn't care if the public gets our code.

                      If OpenBSD had been willing to take strings-attached donations, the money we spent on developers could have gone to them and the results could have been shared with everyone.

                      There are certainly dozens of companies who would happily donate strings-attached money. My point is that demanding money with absolutely no possibility of getting a needed project done succeeds only in eliminating all corporate contributions.

                      Where's the harm in saying, "We're seeking corporate donations?" If a company demands something get done that OpenBSD isn't interested in, then *pass*! Otherwise, take the money and run. Sticking to this principle closes doors which are completely harmless to leave open.

                      Theo's vitriolic persona closes doors which are completely harmless to leave open.

                      In other words, OpenBSD wants to whine they aren't making money while closing huge avenues they have to being successful.

                      I want OpenBSD to succeed as much as the next guy, but come on... Another poster asked why we wouldn't donate to ensure OpenBSD continues rather then having to rely on supporting it ourselves. We DO rely solely on ourselves. There's no way I trust Theo isn't going to get upset at someone and quit, or fire all the CVS committers, or eliminate all support for SMP because Intel and AMD did something to displease him. The only way I can sell using OpenBSD to my customers and shareholders is to assure them that the free project could evaporate tomorrow, and we'd be just fine.

                      1. By Nate (65.95.229.9) on

                        Strings attached money isn't a donation.

                        1. By Anonymous Coward (68.54.14.236) on

                          Wow! You finally got it!

                          No company is going to DONATE unless it's tiny token amounts. If you want to ensure the financial future of OpenBSD, take strings-attached money. If not, hope people buy CDs and whine when they don't. It's not hard.

                          Linux lives because there's tons of money in it, not because of the GPL. It's because companies are happy to give money to open source groups to gain certain features.

                          Turning away corporate sponsorship ensures failure.

                          1. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

                            So what is it that cost you $2M to develop that the OpenBSD guys wouldn't touch ? were their NDAs ? blobs ? tell me, I'm curious

                            1. By Anonymous Coward (70.27.15.123) on

                              Nothing. He is making shit up. He has no company, has paid no developers, and hides behind bullshit like "I won't release the code because I don't want the support headaches" since he has no code.

                              1. By Anonymous Coward (68.54.14.236) on

                                Yep, I'm making things up, you caught me. A dozen developers don't exist. A product that has sold several hundred units to the US Government doesn't exist.

                                The mods were all IPv6 related. No binaries, no NDAs.

                                1. By tedu (71.139.175.127) on

                                  i suppose all those developers are too busy to run 'diff -u' and mail the diff to tech@? anonymously, of course, so you don't have to support it.

                          2. By Nate (65.95.229.9) on

                            Linux lives because companies hire programmers to code the kernel and because volunteers code for free, they're not throwing out money, they're hiring developers.

                            1. By Anonymous Coward (70.74.75.200) on

                              GNU Linux also uses binary drivers and other unfree code. I'll bet this guy wants OpenBSD to compromise its project goals to get those 100k he's so eager to write cheques for.

                2. By Anonymous Coward (128.171.90.200) on

                  If your product relies on OpenBSD, you are paying money to maintain it's survival. If it ceases to be, you are on your own, and that means additional costs on top of what you are currently paying, and explain to your sharholdes that they will be getting lower returns.

                  How hard is it to add support for a protocol or piece of hardware ?
                  If you are willing to supply devices and documentation without NDAs or blobs or other restrictions being imposed then it could be added quite simply, and the code would be of a higher quality I am sure.



                3. By Anonymous Coward (81.168.66.226) on

                  > Is that really hard to understand? Do you really believe companies will give money to a project for NOTHING?

                  Yes, fortunately the whole world doesn't work the same way as present-day USA businesses seem to. See e.g. this article for some insight.

                  1. By Anonymous Coward (68.54.14.236) on

                    Social responsibility has nothing to do with donating to free software projects. If OpenBSD was changing the world and improving the human condition, charity would not be a problem for companies in the US or elsewhere.

                    I don't see anywhere in that article where Indian companies are giving money to someone's hobby.

                    1. By Nate (65.95.229.9) on

                      I don't see my oragami changing the world, but OpenSSH certainly has, and for the better. It's made the massive acceptance of the SSH protocol possible.

                4. By Chris (24.76.100.162) on

                  I often "donate" my company's money to causes with no expectation of return.

                  I'm surprised that you post here if you think the OpenBSD project is worth nothing.

      2. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

        You're an idoit...

        Theo? ... is this you?

        1. By Nate (65.95.241.143) on

          No kid, this is Nate, as in Nate, not Theo.

          1. By Anonymous Coward (24.92.153.74) on

            >>> You're an idoit...

            >> Theo? ... is this you?

            > No kid, this is Nate, as in Nate, not Theo.


            darn, y'all sound the same ;)

            1. By Nate (65.95.241.143) on

              An evaluation of OpenBSD users I once encountered:

              Linux is for the people who hate Windows,
              FreeBSD is for the people who hate Linux,
              NetBSD is for the people who hate OpenBSD,
              And OpenBSD is for the people who hate everyone else.

              1. By Anonymous Coward (66.131.194.17) on

                Linux is for the people who hate Windows,
                FreeBSD is for the people who hate Linux,
                NetBSD is for the people who hate OpenBSD,
                And OpenBSD is for the people who hate everyone else.


                Yes, we are equal-opportunity haters. People can accuse of many things, but not discrimination!

                1. By Anonymous Coward (68.193.228.10) on

                  hey thats my line!

        2. By ben (66.92.16.226) on

          >>You're an idoit... >Theo? ... is this you? I doubt it. Theo can spell.

          1. By Anonymous Coward (66.11.66.41) on

            No he can't.

    2. By Lars Hansson (203.65.245.7) on

      That's total bullshit. Talking about return on investment is a cop-out. We're not talking about a major investment, all that is needed is that companies like IBM, Apple and Red Hat contribues a very small amount of money back. We're talking a few thousand dollars per year and that's not even a drop in the bucket for these companies.

  30. By frost22 (145.253.3.202) on

    One reasosn I stopped bying any BSD cds is that buying them from Europe has become a hassle. Yes, they all list European sources, but most of these are back either alley operations or provide only cursory coverage (they are often out of stock and dont tgake additional orders) and virtually none of them is able and willing to realiably service orders the way large businesses accept them. Subscription models have been completely unavailable domestically for some time.

    As for private donations, none of the BSDs has decent Credit Card processing. While every last porn peddler can afford reputable and decent credit card processors, the BSDs all resort to shady paypal, which is notorious for deceptive business practices and certainly will not see any business from me. And the BSDs even play Paypals game - for instance you are repeatedly (wrongly) told that you don't have to become a paypal member when using their services, but this is only true for one donation per user and year - so if I donate to Openbsd via paypal, I will have to become a member (and in the process give Paypal's goons unlimited access to my checking account) when I also which to donate to FreeBSD.

    Paypal's borderline practices and sorry lack of trustworthyness is well documented, I am a little baffled why you guys insist on using them.

    So, to sum it up, IMO CDROM business falls because you don't make it easier for people to send you money.

    1. By Anonymous Coward (213.84.84.111) on

      If you do not like PayPal, you can donate via regular creditcard processing. See the order page or the european orders page.

      BTW: CD delivery logistics have greatly improved. If you order now, you will receive your CDs before the official release date.

      1. By frost22 (145.253.3.202) on

        sure ?

        I took it as far as it goes without putting actual Credit Card information in there, and nowhere it mentions any other Credit Card processor.

        Plus, the shop software appears to violate Visa's and other's T&C becauise it stores actually Credit Card Data on OpenBSDs systems (they are supposed to transmit them directly to their processor and not store them anywhere)

        This all looks fishy.

        1. By Anonymous Coward (193.195.0.101) on

          "Plus, the shop software appears to violate Visa's and other's T&C becauise it stores actually Credit Card Data on OpenBSDs systems (they are supposed to transmit them directly to their processor and not store them anywhere)"

          Not true. Please read Requirement 3 of the PCI DSS.


        2. By PCI/CISP Expert (70.39.128.102) on

          Uggh, the rules are about what data is stored and how it is stored. Track 2 data can not be stored, except during transmission for processing. Track 1 data may be stored for as long as is necessary to insure clearing of transactions. Account numbers may be stored as long as there is a business need (fraud prevention/analysis.) All data must be stored encrypted or hashed (in the case of hashing, do whatever you would like with the data.) Generally, 3DES is not recommended for encryption, so AES 256 or better (skip AES 384 and just use AES 512, since you were doing the 512 calculations anyway.)

          So, that is a quick summary of PCI/CISP requirements. There is a lot more to them, but that is the highlights. Believe me, storing the data on OpenBSD is a step up from what most retailers use.

        3. By wim (194.78.167.231) wim@kd85.com on http://kd85.com/notforsale.html

          Sorry, you are really really wrong on this. How can I tell? Wel, we do our credit card clearing direct via the VISA International backend.

          We don't go through a 3rd party processor who keeps another x % on each transaction

          Place an order via https://https.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/order.eu and I'll prove you how it works just fine ;-)

          Wim.

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